If the priest speaks (doesn't sing) the final doxology…?
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    If, at the end of the Eucharistic Prayer, the priest speaks rather than sings the final doxology ("Through Him, with Him, in Him…"), shouldn't the "Amen" be spoken as well?

    I saw some really good older threads related to this topic here and here, but neither specifically addressed this question.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,220
    Agreed. Musicam Sacram recommends that the doxology be sung as part of the "first degree" of singing in the Mass, and does not explicitly mention the Amen.

    The US document Music in Catholic Worship urged, in contrast, that the Amen be sung "even when little else is sung".
  • mahrt
    Posts: 517
    I should think that it could be sung anyway. Then it might even occur to the priest that it would be appropriate for him to sing his part of it.
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    There are several Amen's in the Mass, and each is an opportunity for the people to participate by singing. This of course normally requires the priest to do the same. While I agree with mahrt that this particular Amen could be sung anyway, I'm not sure that would be the best way to encourage the priest to sing. It wasn't until we stopped singing a so-called "Great Amen" at our parish that our priests began chanting the doxology.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    If the priest sings, the congregation sings the "amen." When he speaks, so does the congregation.
  • JamJam
    Posts: 636
    Why wouldn't the priest sing that?! It's such a pivotal moment (akin to our "thine own of thine own we offer unto thee, in behalf of all and for all").

    The amen after, is that the "great amen" that lotsa parishes do? I always wondered about that.
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    Thanks, friends. I'm inclined to follow incantu's logic (and CharlesW's practice), hoping that our spoken "Amen" might serve as a gentle hint that the doxology really ought to be sung.

    Richard, thanks for the reminder from Musicam Sacram. Looking at that document, it's interesting to see how our sense of "degrees" have parted from what Vatican II intended: Rarely do I ever hear the entrance rites or the acclamations sung (first degree), even when second-degree things are usually sung, like the Gloria and the Agnus Dei.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    Some priests are just not comfortable singing, and don't do it. It seems to me that the concept of "high mass" disappeared in most places after Vatican II. The norm today is a "low mass" with some music thrown in.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    I think Doxology is a really good place for 'reluctant' priest to chant. A priest here who asked us to sing "amen,' wasn't chanting his part. So I asked him (with my best manner) it would be a great help for the congregation to chant 'amen' if he chanted the Doxology. He was very nice about it, and asked me 'how does it go?' and then he started to chant it. To his surprise he already knew it, and we really didn't need more practice. Since then, we are all chanting our parts in Doxology. (Hopefully we will move on to more chanting in other 'Dialogues' in Mass.)
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    You absolutely right, Mia, the "per ipsum" is the minimal least a celebrant should offer....
  • Donnaswan
    Posts: 585
    One of our previous priests did the Doxology in what I can only call 'Sprechstimme' We sang in response, tho.
    Donna
  • DougS
    Posts: 793
    Now if only Alban Berg had written a Mass, maybe more priests could "Sprechstimme" their way through--instead of muddling through the Eucharistic Prayer to MoC and making bad music even worse! Don't know if the Church would have gone for Berg's polyphony, though.
  • Donnaswan
    Posts: 585
    We now have priests with very good ears for staying in the proper key and actually singing. Today the celebrant chanted
    everything he is supposed to chant for the entire Mass. So uplifting, even if the pitch strayed a teensy-weensy bit!

    The choir santg the solemn setting of the Regina Caeli, Bach/Gounod 'Ave Maria' and 'If Ye love me' Psalm 34 for Communon. A wonderful Mass. I left church with my heart uplifted.

    Donna
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,022
    CharlesW said: "Some priests are just not comfortable singing, and don't do it."

    Maybe some one should point out to him that this is a feeling that every organist and cantor has a one time or another. Most cantors don't come to the job with background of singing in front of people. As an organist starting out in high school, I made some note mistakes along the way. The way I got over it was to tell myself (as if I were talking to the congregation!): "I'm up here doing my best for you. If you don't like it, or think you can do it better, then you come up here and play the organ instead of me!"

    It comes down to following either one of two recent commercial one-liners:

    1) from the way on drugs: "Just say, No!"
    2) or from Nike shoes: "Just do it!"
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Dr. Shadle, Vincent Persichetti's Mass had some Bergian/Bartokian moments, as I recall.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    Oh, I have made my share of mistakes and wrong notes, especially in the beginning. The difference was, that playing the organ was something I wanted to do. If the priest doesn't want to sing and doesn't view it as important, you won't get far with that argument. it's a genuine mistake to think that all priests share our goals for music and liturgy. They don't.
  • Donnaswan
    Posts: 585
    Oh CharlesW, You are so right on!
    Donna
  • JamJam
    Posts: 636
    how unfortunately true. perhaps if seminaries had more of a liturgical bent...
  • DougS
    Posts: 793
    The Josephinum in Columbus was hiring a new music director this year--wanted them to lead all liturgies, plan special celebrations, as well as teach what looked like a 3+3 teaching load. In other words, two jobs in one. God bless whomever got the position, but in my opinion this is no way to go about it. The proposed courses, by the way, were primarily chant-based.
  • Donnaswan
    Posts: 585
    I well remember a few years back when I mentioned singing an Introit, and was informed in no uncertain terms that introits hadn't been sung or at least called 'introits' for 40 years.

    Donna
  • G
    Posts: 1,401
    it's a genuine mistake to think that all priests share our goals for music and liturgy. They don't.


    True, but a surprising number complain about lack of assembly sung participation yet don't sing their own parts.

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    G, I have encountered that with several priests. It doesn't make a lot of sense, does it?
  • Daniel Bennett PageDaniel Bennett Page
    Posts: 837
    It's particularly annoying to see priests singing the hymns with great gusto (with books and everything) at the entering and retiring processions and yet not singing singing note-one of their own part! This happens at every sung Mass at the cathedral of my diocese, which has the best choir and liturgical organist of any church/parish (of any denomination, even Episcopal!) in my (large, east-coast) city! A great example for all the other parishes, no?
  • jhoffman
    Posts: 29
    This is a very interesting thread. I wonder what would happen, if the priest who doesn't sing the opening oration/prayer, had the assembly respond with a sung Amen? What if the other prayers that were spoken by the priest also received a sung response? What if we sang the response to the priest's preface dialogue before the Eucharistic prayer? (Pr: The Lord be with you. Sung:AND ALSO WITH YOU. Pr. Lift up your hearts. WE LIFT THEM UP TO THE LORD, etc.) I think It would seem very odd. In most case (if not all) we probably respond with a spoken Amen or join in the dialogue with spoken responses. Yet we continue to have a sung Amen to the doxological ending of the Eucharistic prayers when they are spoken. What if we just let the assembly assent to the Eucharistic Prayer with a simple spoken Amen if the doxology is not sung?

    It may cause some in the parish, the priest too, to reconsider the directives to sing the orations - even if only on one tone - so that all the faithful can respond with a sung Amen, with sung responses to the dialogues, etc. How simple, yet some seem to resist and "hold back" those who want to pray according to the Church's wishes with full, conscious, active participation in the liturgy.

    It doesn't need to be complex or even involve reading notation. Just chanting on one note will suffice for those who think they are musically challenged. And finally, this doesn't have to apply only to Sunday masses, but all weekday masses. Wouldn't that be great?
  • Donnaswan
    Posts: 585
    Our newest priest is singing the Sursum corda, and of course, everyone responds singing . It's one of the responses along with the Pater noster, that everyone seems to instinctively know. I don't understand why all the celebrants don't all sing this. They certainly know it.

    Donna
  • aquinasadmirer
    Posts: 102
    We had one of our priests as a dinner guest recently, and this topic came up. He said that he doesn't sing the parts (where the laity responds) regularly, because he doesn't want it to be "routine". He said that it would lose it's impact. I've only heard him do this at Lent. Is this kind of attitude in line with the directives of how to celebrate Mass?
  • JamJam
    Posts: 636
    NO.

    Edit:

    This is a very slippery slope argument. You can use the same argument to say, "well, then we shouldn't say Mass every day, because then it would lose its impact." Or, "we shouldn't say the our father too much, or it'll lose its impact." Or all the way to Jansenist "we shouldn't even take communion once a year, or it'll lose its impact."

    I don't understand that reasoning at all. There are fasts, such as fasts from meat on Fridays or (exclusively in the Western church) the word "alleluia" during Lent. Then, when you receive those good things back at the end of the fast you certainly appreciate them more. But are we to fast from beauty, from prayer, from chant, from solemn worship, so that when we do finally do those things they are more meaningful? Not at all. That's missing the point entirely. Our lives are meant to be one long prayer; a sacrifice to God. We can't ever cut out beauty and solemnity or our prayer's essence has changed.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,220
    It should be routine.
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    We had this problem in my parish with the RCIA Sundays during Lent; the parish uses the Year A readings and the prayers for the elect, etc. It was the custom before I got here to have spoken intercessions with a sung response. When asked if that would continue, I mentioned that I would be happy to continue the sung response if the deacon would like to chant the petition. Otherwise, it would be similar to being greeted on the street with a "Good morning" to which one would reply SUNG "very fine, thank you." It died quickly...

    Now, I would like the dialogues sung at least at the principal Mass on Sundays, but this sung-response-to-spoken-celebrant's-words just doesn't make sense (and the people will still speak the Amen, from my experience, even if they are to sing as well.)

    I think the attitude Mark S mentions is pretty common among priests of a certain generation; I can only imagine it was a product of their seminary (disin)formation. Usually it is well-meaning, but how could the sung liturgy be routine, especially if it's what the liturgical documents want?
  • aquinasadmirer
    Posts: 102
    Thanks Jam,

    Your keyboard put into words what my gut was telling me.

    -M
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    Often times I've heard priests say that chanting the Preface or Collect makes Mass "too long."

    These are often the same guys who want to stand around and sing all 5 verses of All Are Welcome, just so we're totally clear and know/understand how welcome we are (very, very welcome).
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