"Catholic Sensibility" vs. Mahrt
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Here is a link to Todd Flowerday's criticism of William Mahrt. You might consider leaving a comment

    Not making to the link live so you have to copy and paste

    http://catholicsensibility.wordpress.com/2008/03/01/lacking-imagination-and-confidence/
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,206
    My advice: bind your head with duct tape before you go over and read it, so as to either keep your head from exploding, or at the least make the pieces easier to find if it does.

    (Oh, and with my now well-known flair for sarcasm, vinegar and the like, I've posted a comment over there.)
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I found it a rather hackneyed attack on Dr. Mahrt rather than dealing with the issues at hand. "Pipe organs have pride of place, but that doesn't apply to electronic ones!" And I say that as an avid reader and fan of Todd's blog. I appreciate an intelligent point to make me think about my own opinions, but this is little more than an attack on a man Todd doesn't even know. I would defend Dr. Mahrt, but I'm banned from commenting on the blog.
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,206
    Gavin, you've been banned from commenting on that blog? Go read my comment. I'm probably going to be next.
  • G
    Posts: 1,397
    I find said blogger, when he discusses liturgy and music, ... disingenuous at best; ...
    (Good on astronomy and recipes, however.)
    He is like a child who throws rocks at other children to get them to play with him. Why give in and play his game?
    ...
    Do yourself a favor and instead of following the link, say a prayer for the man.
  • Dave
    Posts: 64
    Generally, I found the article verbose and rambling.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,768
    allow me to ramble for a moment.

    I would like to comment on FlowerDay's blog. I will use today's experience as a launching pad.

    I have just returned from a Solemn High Mass (Tridentine) in celebration of Laetare Sunday. The parish has been holding this 'indult' liturgy for many years. Before that, it has been celebrated for hundreds of years in the same form. There was no 'playing' here. This was the real thing.

    It seems that 'playing' is the most important aspect of musical activity. If a musician wants to 'play', s/he should retire to the studio, conservatory or concert hall/stage (the 'play' houses) and frolic to their heart's content. This idea of 'playing' at the liturgy is the error of foolishness and teeters on abomination that at one point in time is just going to end.

    Back to the Mass. The schola was unacommpanied and was intricately involved in chanting many parts (the actual text) of the Mass. The priest also chanted (the prayers, readings, etc.) throughout and it was obvious that there was a continuity of music, form and style, of both priest and schola. Was the congregation actively participating? Yes. We were all in awe and wonder and our hearts were in rapture. That was more 'true' participation in liturgy that I have seen in many NO's for years. (BTW... for the purists, the organ was never turned on).

    As for 'other instruments', I will only speak from my own experience.

    As a composer, performer and owner of many 'other instruments' including synthesizers, guitars, percussion instruments, bass guitar, and as one who has played many electronic organs (haven't played one I thought deserved a place in a Catholic church yet) I consider myself as very diverse in musical expression in both forms sacred and secular. Professionally, I have represented firms in the production, rebuilding, sale and utilization of electronic organs, pianos, and such. I've worked for and collaborated with builders that represent the finest pianos in the world (and performed privately for those owners and their distributors [see http://www.feurich.com/]). I have played in many churches, Catholic and otherwise. I personally own a Steinway 1897 AA which I grew up playing from the age of eight. I consider myself an organ buff (prefer a good tracker organ to any other). I, of all people, certainly love 'other instruments'. But truth be told, the Mass I attended today to me represented the purest expression of the true liturgy... one that evolved over hundreds and hundreds of years. Priest, schola, congregation and the simple accidents of bread and wine. In my total experience as a DM, organist, composer, etc. etc., today was the most perfect musical expression of liturgy bar none.

    For all my experience, 'playing', performing, composing, building, tuning, regulating, stringing, repairing and more, I had the distinct sense that I have and need not have anything to contribute to such a wonderful and perfect rite such as what I experienced today.

    I would also like to speak about the 'ecumenical sphere' in which I also have a great deal of experience, things spiritual and musical. I would say it simply and succinctly. Be very wary of such a beast! It has the claws of musical emotionalism and spiritual magnetism that in the end only intend to devour the soundness of the one holy Catholic faith.

    In defense of Mr. Mahrt, I believe he is attempting to steer, or better yet, lead by example, the liturgical/musical community out of the quagmire they have gotten themselves into.

    This scripture comes to mind:

    "Remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me.

    I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing.

    Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned."

    That last line seems very prophetic for our time as musicians in the church as it could quite easily be applied toward all the liturgical innovation that has occurred in the past forty years or so. I also think it is not co-incidental that our hymnals are made out of the same thing... branches of wood!
  • john m
    Posts: 136
    I had an interesting debate going there for a while today but grew weary of the host's attitude. Is this by any chance the same person of that name who wore out his welcome in the NLM comboxes a year or so ago? I seem to recognize the tone.
  • I keep hearing the argument about some people being led to God through different means. It's kind of a non-starter argument, though. For every person who is wedded to popular music there is another who is led away from the Word by it. To this end, I ask myself everyday "Am I just putting forth my preference?" I do answer honestly "no". I find myself more and more not listening to chant as music. The more I hear it, the more it becomes heightened prayer to me. This tells me that it really is the music for the Church. Those who find it boring and not uplifting are looking for the wrong thing in Church music, IMO. There needs to be some serious reconsidering of what the Mass is all about. Too many people use it as a weekly pick-me-up rather than an opportunity to engage in the ritual remembrance of Christ's sacrifice.
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,206
    I attempted to participate, and regretted having been so easily baited (leaving the whole "boil your head" comment). G's observation was on target. It was rather like responding to a kid throwing rocks (or sand) as an attention-getter.

    The more I read other people's attempts to enter into reasonable dialogue and the blog host's responses, I was reminded of a fencing class I had to take as part of my undergrad days. I worked very hard to master the techniques, but when it came down to the graded bouts, I got low marks because the other guys would make perfectly legal touches, but with such wild, Errol Flynn-like technique that it was sheer dumb luck that any of the touches landed. It was the most ungratifying and exhausting experience. As was this experience.

    I'm led to make this observation. I'm a relative newcomer to the wonderful world of forum boards and participation in commentary on blogs (I actually was thinking of starting a blog of my own), and having made some rather reckless comments myself from time to time, I wonder how one goes about redeeming one's "credibility", especially if one truly regrets having made the reckless comments. Gavin remarked that he'd been banned from comment on the immediate blog in question. John M tells us that he suspects this blogger is the same person who "wore out his welcome" in the NLM comboxes.

    So, ladies and gentlemen, are we all basically on our best behavior? Or is a little circumspection in order?

    (Michael- I've been asserting as a point of discussion with a colleague of mine that chant really isn't music in the traditional "western" sense, but is rather a specific set of formulae designed for the specific purpose of carrying liturgical and scriptural text, in an entirely objective manner. To be sure if you pay close attention there is some truly brilliant text-painting techniques to be teased out of the formulas, but its a subtlety that is totally absent from most conventional forms of music, sacred or secular. He doesn't buy my argument, but it's nice to know I'm not the only one who's thinking along those lines.)
  • G
    Posts: 1,397
    "So, ladies and gentlemen, are we all basically on our best behavior? Or is a little circumspection in order?"

    Well, I'm not, at least not all the time, which is why I had to go back and edit my post above.... whatever I suspect of, or even know of that person, there is no call for me to be saying it in public.
    So your question is timely and worth thinking about. But I cannot resist paraphrasing Dr Johnson.
    I do not wish to speak ill of a man behind his back, but I believe the gentleman is a liturgist.

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    I was just thinking that I probably made a mistake in even linking this post. It's really hard to know what to do in these cases. You know, one likes to provide information but neither to we want to fall into a trap.
  • mjballoumjballou
    Posts: 994
    I've had my own experiences with Todd on my blog. Enough said.

    However, I did find Francis' posting here of interest. I'm a professional musician, performing mostly as a harpist. I sing, play the organ, the salterio, and can tootle on a consort of recorders with the worst of amateurs. However, I don't believe the Mass is the place where I'm entitled because of my abilities to exercise any and all of my gifts. Of course, when another music director hires me, then I am simply working for hire and do all I can to improve the level of the liturgy.

    At the same time, I've noticed that many of the Catholic church musicians around here perform virtually nowhere but in their churches. (I'm considering writing a short article on the subject even as I type this.) There are two problems I see. The first is obviously that their church turns into a venue. The second is losing touch with the larger musical world out there and opportunities for continuing education and development. Then a whole world of distortion is possible.

    Since I can't find my roll of duct tape and I love Joel Chandler Harris, I think I'll skip Todd's post.
  • David, Yes, of course. I analyze chant and polyphony for a living (well my research is part of my academic living) so I see wondrous things in chant every day. I know this is not news here, but as I was working with my schola last night (my, how that group effectively removes the bad mood I find myself in by Sunday evening) we were noticing that no matter what day of the Church year you pick, there are stunningly beautiful chants to sing. We liked the Low Sunday chants we had been working on, but we were asked to postpone our appearance for logistical reasons so we started working on Easter III chants. Just as nice (Jubilate Deo is the introit!).

    Mike
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,228
    I seem to recognize the tone

    ...not to mention the pitch and rhythm...

    I've encountered him, too. Serious case of insecurity.
  • mjballoumjballou
    Posts: 994
    It's taken me a few days to build up the strength to read "Sing to the Lord." I know I was putting it off. And after I read it (and had a brief fit), I knew why I'd delayed. Bland, filled with phrases anyone can interpret in any way that suits him/her, and largely a program for the status quo, with a few bits about Latin, etc. "to keep the conservatives happy." And when I look at the mainstream liturgical programming and training going on, that's just what I see. Business as usual.

    Noting Dr. Mahrt's comment on funeral music, I particularly focused on that section. It appears that we're all puppies just going to sleep or we're all going straight to Heaven. No fear of judgment, no pleas for mercy. (If you want to see really impressive funeral texts, look at those for the Eastern Orthodox Churches where the deceased reminds the mourners that where he is, they will be soon). At least SttL did admonish against playing my favorite pop tunes at the vigil, no matter how much I liked them.

    Many thanks to Dr. Mahrt for having the fortitude to work through all of this so thoughtfully.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,768
    Woof, Woof! Can I go!? (forgive me... not intelligent or civil. Jeff, you can delete this if you want... I just couldn't resist!)