Will interest in English propers endure?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    There is no silliness. You really need to get out more often. ;-) The word "rites" has largely been replaced by the word, "churches." As we use "rite," we are referring to a liturgical tradition. There are 22 churches in the Catholic Church - some count differently and get a few more, but they are similar. They are self-governing, except for the tiny remnants of churches in persecuted areas that are under another jurisdiction. They have a separate code of canon law, and are under the jurisdiction of a patriarch, metropolitan, or major archbishop. They are sui iuris, particular churches in communion with Rome. All are fully Catholic, but not "Roman" or "Latin." They tend to have their own chant traditions, too - some quite beautiful.

    The Holy See's Annuario Pontificio gives the following list of Eastern Catholic Churches and of countries in which they possess an episcopal ecclesiastical jurisdiction (date of union or foundation in parenthesis):

    Alexandrian liturgical tradition
    Coptic Catholic Church (patriarchate): Egypt (1741)
    Ethiopian Catholic Church (metropolia): Ethiopia, Eritrea (1846)

    Antiochian (Antiochene or West-Syrian) liturgical tradition
    Maronite Church (patriarchate): Lebanon, Cyprus, Jordan, Israel, Palestine, Egypt, Syria, Argentina, Brazil, United States, Australia, Canada, Mexico (union re-affirmed 1182)
    Syriac Catholic Church (patriarchate): Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Palestine, Egypt, Sudan, Syria, Turkey, United States and Canada, Venezuela (1781)
    Syro-Malankara Catholic Church (major archiepiscopate): India, United States (1930)

    Armenian liturgical tradition:
    Armenian Catholic Church (patriarchate): Lebanon, Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, Jordan, Palestine, Ukraine, France, Greece, Latin America, Argentina, Romania, United States, Canada, Eastern Europe (1742)

    Chaldean or East Syrian liturgical tradition:
    Chaldean Catholic Church (patriarchate): Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, United States (1692)
    Syro-Malabar Church (major archiepiscopate): India, United States (at latest, 1599)

    Byzantine Rite|Byzantine (Constantinopolitan) liturgical tradition:
    Albanian Greek Catholic Church (apostolic administration): Albania (1628)
    Belarusian Greek Catholic Church (no established hierarchy at present): Belarus (1596)
    Bulgarian Greek Catholic Church (apostolic exarchate): Bulgaria (1861)
    Byzantine Church of the Eparchy of Križevci (an eparchy and an apostolic exarchate): Croatia, Serbia and Montenegro (1611)
    Greek Byzantine Catholic Church (two apostolic exarchates): Greece, Turkey (1829)
    Hungarian Greek Catholic Church (an eparchy and an apostolic exarchate): Hungary (1646)
    Italo-Albanian Catholic Church (two eparchies and a territorial abbacy): Italy (Never separated)
    Macedonian Greek Catholic Church (an apostolic exarchate): Republic of Macedonia (1918)
    Melkite Greek Catholic Church (patriarchate): Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Israel, Jerusalem, Brazil, United States, Canada, Mexico, Iraq, Egypt and Sudan, Kuwait, Australia, Venezuela, Argentina (1726)
    Romanian Church United with Rome, Greek-Catholic (major archiepiscopate): Romania, United States (1697)
    Russian Catholic Church: (two apostolic exarchates, at present with no published hierarchs): Russia, China (1905); currently about 20 parishes and communities scattered around the world, including five in Russia itself, answering to bishops of other jurisdictions
    Ruthenian Catholic Church (a sui juris metropolia, an eparchy, and an apostolic exarchate): United States, Ukraine, Czech Republic (1646)
    Slovak Greek Catholic Church (metropolia): Slovak Republic, Canada (1646)
    Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (major archiepiscopate): Ukraine, Poland, United States, Canada, Great Britain, Australia, Germany and Scandinavia, France, Brazil, Argentina (1595)
  • francis
    Posts: 10,816
    We are well aware of other rites. I believe that almost all of us in the CMAA are a part of the Latin rite and are interested to promote it, teach it and support it's existence along with our Pope. As Fortescue proclaimed ours is one of the most venerable, one of the oldest, perhaps the largest and one of the most beautiful.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    As long as you know we exist. I probably promote chant far more than most Latin musicians in the area. I also have been using some nice Richard Rice pieces, too. All good stuff!

    I have nothing at all against the Latin rite, but am bugged by the fact it can't seem to get itself together in the U.S. There are too many musical extremes and factions that don't appear to have any common goals or shared visions.
  • JamJam
    Posts: 636
    I know that MusicaSacra is primarily concerned with the Latin Rite, and that is why I am here. I love the Latin language and Latin chant.

    But I find that people here often make blanket statements about liturgy, what's good and what's bad, etc., based off the Latin rite alone... The different Rites of the church should edify each other, rather than be at each other's throats. I think the different rites of the Catholic church have things to learn from each other. If something is good in one rite, or works in one rite, you can't dismiss it offhand because it is not Latin... by no means are you obligated to adopt it, but just think about it.

    The Latin rite is very old, but certain things in it are not old. For example, the Tridentine Mass is not very old at all.
  • I continue to aver that liturgies should make up their minds as to which language they are in and be consistent in the use of that language. This is not pedantic, but is borne of a desire for an aesthetic and prayerful continuum throughout a single liturgy. Of course, even in Latin masses one is required to have the readings in the vernacular. If I had my way they, too, would be in Latin. Cultivating the idea that doing parts of the mass in Latin at English masses is somehow more holy or more closely adheres to some mythical ideal is just too precious for words. It makes no more sense than singing (oh, perish the thought!) parts of the mass in English at Latin masses.


    M.Jackson,
    Your ideal may not stem from pedantic origins, but it may also have some roots in esoteric soil. What you describe almost seems like "liturgical eugenics," as if we can fabricate the purest strains of our own volition, without acceding to the will of God and acknowledging that we are, after all, humans, saints and sinners, striving to work God's purpose out. We chatter a lot over "intelligibility"- does it really matter or not during the act of worship? So, why wonder at all about whether anyone's preference "makes no more sense" that the other's?
    When I teach my parochial kids about the primary aspects of chant and chanting, I try to couch the pedagogy in terms that accentuate the "otherness" of singing the ritual texts. Same thing when I meet with RCIA folk. And then my heart is gladdened when we are afforded any of our three capable priest/celebrant/singers who sing the orations et al at school or other Masses.
    Today, we used Greek chant, English chant (AG,) Latin chant and homophonic English Propers (SCG) as well as a couple of hymns. What's fascinating to me is that no one ever complains about chant, in fact, they practically bowl others over to inform us how much they love it. These folks hardly ever mention a preference for English, Greek or Latin; they just love and respect the solemnity and dignity of its inclusion at the table.
    With respect.
  • rsven
    Posts: 43
    Dear M. Jackson, Amen. We sing chant in English and/or Latin, for the ex. rite or ord. rite, and all seems to work. Dr. Ford, take heart. There is really no quarrel here. We can mix or match. I direct an ex. rite, with all Graduale Rom. chants, and also mix the English and latin for an ord. rite Mass. It all works.
  • Charles in CenCA - Thanks for your comment. With all due respect I should have thought that any eugenics implied in this strain would have been more logically linked with the notion that Latin, whenever and wherever it was used, was inherently and sui generis more holy and worshipful than English. Would anyone think it anything other than bizarre were one to suggest singing an English ordinary at a Latin mass? Then what, pray, is the difference with English masses? What does this say erroneously about our own beautiful and potentially sacred language? Vernacular has never made Protestants out of the Eastern Rites, nor of the Orthodox (they have other problems). Finally, the argument for mere intelligibility is one that I would never make.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,816
    Well it certainly was an interesting thread while we had fuel to pour on the fire. But it seems to have gone out.

    I guess what I am trying to relate to all of you is that we as Roman Rite Catholics will always dream (like Noel) for the ideal and strive to see it. We are all dreamers. It is our heritage, it is the ideal, it is what we love. That is why we always talk about it, bring it up, sing it, teach it, practice it, compose new things, throw away new things, dig up old things, and dust them off for everyone else to gawk at. (JO is certainly to be commended for doing a lot of that!) It's why RR, JT, Prof Marht, JO, Noel, AOZ, Aristotle, and the dozens of other fanatics of the most beautiful music in the world are always hanging around this forum... we love to gather, collaborate, share resources, and get excited to dream the dream and sing THE song.

    So you non-Latin rite brethren will just have to put up with us, cause we have been around for many, many centuries and we will never be anything less than obsessed, amazed and like kids in a candy store with our Latin chants and polyphonies, I can assure you of that. And we certainly are many in number... We love kids and figure that having them is the one sure fire way to take over the world. I think one sixth of the world is Catholic, and not sure how many are Roman, but a lot... I am always looking for ways to put a straw in the Coke bottle for my own parishoners. (see earlier reference in this thread to 'The Real Thing') This place is the impetus that keeps me focused and running after the ideal. I thank you all... and most of all, I thank you (The Charleses, The Ians, The Fords and Jams, and all you others who make us think and reason to why we do what we do here.) Many hugs and kisses to you all!
  • Francis, this one of the Charleses (I like that!) likes to regard himself as a "pro-multis" Latin idealist! And we are in union about this special place (What is this place, where we are meeting? One motherboard of zeroes and ones.) But I digress and take my wife, please;-) Part of running after the ideal is maintaining a pace, more turtle than hare, that values both priest and the Faithful as compatriots rather than combatants. Sometimes I wonder if that's more difficult out here on the left coast, but anecdotal evidence suggests that's not the case. Situations that are vastly different out here include the lifelong adherence to the ideal by the Marhts and Salamunoviches who held firm to the wheel they inherited; the MaryAnns, GregP's and Fr. Keyeses who are fixed upon getting on course by the True Star as rapidly as possible; and the Charleses and Chris Allens who do whatever we can whenever we can around many obstacles.
    M.Jackson, thank you as well for your reply. My response to your quote stemmed from the real-politik experiences I've encountered over decades.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,816
    Hi Charles

    They haven't even heard Latin out here for (10-20 years maybe?) before their present pastor arrived three years ago. So this parish is getting a healthy dose of Roman Catholic Liturgical catechesis since I came and our new Director of Catechesis came from Brompton six months after I arrived. With the three of us, we are carefully and 'pastorally' bringing them to new heights in liturgical reform, but ever so slowly. You can't unboil the frog too fast or it will get cold and jump out of the pot!
  • Charles inCenCa
    Don't forget the south for congregations who may be Latin-illiterate!!

    Donna
  • This question is sad for me to hear but I admit it is important.

    I can tell you that in the Orthodox Churches it will endure.
    You my dearest brethren must listen to Capella Romana's CD titled "The Divine Liturgy in English"

    You can hear an example of it at the beginning of this youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYLBrFXs8DY

    This is the 2nd part of the Cherubic Hymn, the lyrics are:

    "For we are about to receive the King of all, invisibly escorted by the angelic hosts. Alleluia"

    amazon.com sells it for $20, it is worth every penny. After hearing this recording no on earth can deny that the idea of a liturgical language is somewhat meaningless. It is an idea to promote unity and strength in the church. It is not ment to create cultural hegemony and divisions. English is the new international language, Latin is not. Engish today is what Greek and Latin were 2000 years ago. Latin, as with Greek is important, it deserves to be preserved in certain churches and localities, it should not be prejudiced against, but English rightfully ought to be the new liturgical language for most of North America. The sooner the Catholic Church accepts this the better off we will be. The Orthodox Church is already closer to the process of accepting it and treating English in the serious way it deserves to be, despite many slight variations of translation used in their churches they all contain the roots of what will be eventually a single English language liturgy preserved for many centuries to come.

    I look forward to the day when this question is no longer asked on this forum.
    I personally admire Bruce for his wisdom and encourage him to become part of the Western Rite of the Antiochian Orthodox Church where his gifts are strongly admired.
  • by the way, I am part of the Latin Rite, and frankly I am tired of the arrogance of its members towards it.
    yes its a rite than can be when in its more ancient "high form" very beautiful.

    But honestly all the eastern rites are typically presented in a more beautiful manner, just as rich and most of the time celebrated in a much atmosphere than the latin rite usually is. I think the latin rite if anything ought to use the byzantine rite and its more successful methods of inculturation as a role model rather than pretend it does not exist or is inferior.

    In the 1st millenium maybe latin christianity was much smaller but more orthodox than eastern christianity which was large and full of schisms

    In the 2nd millenium we saw eastern christianity become smaller and more orthodox while the latin rite broke apart in schisms and iconoclasm of sorts.

    In the 3rd millenium who knows...we can and should learn from each other.
  • I also believe CharlesW may be exagerrating to say that the latin used in the church was street latin.
    That it came to have differences from classical 1st B.C. latin over time is certainly true. Though I think that it would a mistake to think that this means it is not very beautiful eloquent language. However english also has that ability. The 2011/2008 ICEL translations will give us glimpses of the possibilities that english has to offer even though they do not fully address the 1960's/70s translation errors and inorganic modifications.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    I think my point was that Church Latin was never the highest form of the language. It had much humbler origins. Classical Latin scholars have generally looked down on it as representative of a language in decline. I am not part of the Latin Rite, but am eastern Catholic. I merely work for the Latins. I don't aspire to be one.

    BTW, I agree on English being as widespread as Latin and Greek were in the 4th century. Latin and Greek haven't been international languages in many centuries. However, I probably hear more Latin every Sunday than most in my city hear in quite a number of years. Most of the older Latin church music is beautiful, some is rather plain. Putting something in Latin doesn't necessarily make it higher in quality.

    I, too, admire Bruce. He does good work.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    A December article by Susan Benofy in the Adoremus Bulletin addresses the idea that the Latin of the Church was of a common style. It's hard to believe that anyone who has actually ever spent time reading the collects of the Roman Missal could think this, as they often appear to be highly structured texts.



    Translating the prayers into the vernacular, the languages of the people, was considered a necessary first step in the liturgical reform. Although at the time of the Council the liturgy had been in Latin, some countries had received permission to have parts of the liturgy, especially the administration of the sacraments, in the vernacular languages. In the decades before the Second Vatican Council there was a strong movement for use of the vernacular in liturgy and much discussion of the advantage and possible difficulty of putting the Latin prayers into English.

    Some argued that the Latin of the Mass was simply the everyday language of Christians of the fourth century, and so, the Mass today must likewise be in everyday language. Christine Mohrmann, a professor at the Universities of Nijmegen and Amsterdam who specialized in the study of Christian Latin, disputed this view. She gave three lectures at the Catholic University of America, published as Liturgical Latin: Its Origins and Character (Washington, DC: Catholic University of America Press, 1957).

    In one of these lectures she said:

    The advocates of the use of the vernacular who maintain that even in Christian antiquity the current speech of everyday life, “the Latin of the common man”, was employed, are far off the mark.... The earliest liturgical Latin is a strongly stylized, more or less artificial language, of which many elements — for instance Orations — were not easily understood even by the average Christian of the fifth century or later. This language was far removed from that of everyday life. (Liturgical Latin, pp. 60-61)


    Some discussions before the Council concerning the use of the vernacular took account of this argument, and dealt with the complexity of balancing intelligibility with the form of expression appropriate to communicating sacred things.

    A 1956 symposium on English in the liturgy included a paper by H. P. R. Finberg, a professor of local history at the University of Leicester, and one of the translators of The Missal in Latin and English, a 1949 Missal for use by the laity. (The prayers for this Missal were translated by Finberg and the Reverend J. O’Connell; Scripture readings were from the translation by Monsignor Ronald Knox.)

    In Dr. Finberg’s paper for the symposium, “The Problem of Style”, he said:

    Those who advocate the use of the mother tongue in public worship do so because they wish to heighten the layman’s understanding of, and participation in, the sacred mysteries. But we have to recognize that it is just as possible to be obscure or clumsy in English as it is in Latin.… The question of English in the liturgy cannot usefully be discussed apart from the question, what sort of English? (“The Problem of Style”, in English in the Liturgy: A Symposium, C. R. A. Cunliffe, editor. Springfield, IL: Templegate, 1956, p. 109)


    Dr. Finberg also pointed out that:

    It will be generally agreed that the first object of a translation is to make the text intelligible. But intelligible to whom? (p. 110)


    Since any text of the liturgy must be suitable for public worship “its language must therefore possess a hieratic quality”, Finberg wrote. (Ibid.)

    A year later, Dr. Mohrmann dealt with Latin as a sacred language in her lectures at Catholic University. She said that in order to study a sacred language,

    one must first rid himself of the still widespread conception that the only function of human language is that of communication; in other words, that language only serves to make known, as clearly and efficiently as possible, that which the speaker wishes to convey to his hearer. (Liturgical Latin, p. 1)

    One school of linguistics, she said, had overemphasized this practical function of language and consequently saw the value of language primarily in terms of its efficiency. As it becomes more efficient as an instrument of communication, language tends to grow simpler in grammatical structure over time. This can be seen from the development of very widely spoken languages such as English and Spanish.

    Dr. Mohrmann, in fact, was not in favor of translating the liturgy into the vernacular because she believed that the influence of this positivist, pragmatic view of language simply as communication was so strong:

    The colloquial language is the language; the ideals of efficiency and intelligibility, the idea of language as communication, dominate the conception of language as a human phenomenon. (Ibid., p. 9, original emphasis)


    Like Finberg, she believed that the style of English mattered. She thus feared that many stylistic characteristics of the Latin prayers would be lost if translators were concerned only with efficiency of communication. This loss, she believed, would outweigh the gain in intelligibility of vernacular prayers. Her fears were not unfounded.