Lauridsen... not quite polyphony, is it?

My prayer, hope, desire and wish for all Catholics, clergy, their parishes, music directors, organists, choirs, and especially the Vatican and its music director and choirs would simply be this: To strive and reach for that which is beautiful, elegant, serene, noble, enlightened, and sublime in each other. To avoid that which is harsh, crude, unrefined and to seek perfection as Our Father is perfect. To lead all soul to GOD through the Beauty of Holiness in His gift of music and the sacred arts. To learn from each other (even our Anglican brothers and sister) in the art of sacred music, liturgy and worship. To realize that through our heart's love we might all come one day to stand before GOD in heaven, joining with the Heavenly Hosts and sing to Him that which no word can express, to sing the Beauty of God's Holiness. Let us as GOD's children encourage, serve and inspire one another.

ken
that was beautiful. thank you.

Ken, a beautiful prayer. Thank you.
Donna

Having roomed with an American composer at Interlochen and listened to his rants about all the dead composer music that is performed, it is interesting to note that while modern American composers are poorly represented in the orchestral world, Americans fair much better in the choral world.

PaixGioiaAmor, that is exactly right. We must create liturgical music for our own time. Every other generation has. The thing that links all generations is the chant. The new music must complement and be in harmony with the chant. We are smart enough to do this...

Correction, Michael... YOU and some others are smart enough... Not sure about the rest of humanity though... they all seem to want a guitar.

Well, hopefully (eventually) the guitar (music) will be banned from the Mass.

CharlesW, it seems to me that you belong to a church that is known for very orthodox music and yet you have a very different opinion as far as what the music should be in the Roman parish that you are employed by...now maybe I'm wrong and you are greeted with guitars and protestant hymns when you go to church after playing for Roman Catholic Masses.

Chant is not the only music for the Mass but ALL the music for the Mass has to be composed to be liturgical rather than popular...meaning that some of Rutter may be liturgical but much of it is popular, for example.

You cannot go wrong by singing chant. Nor by strictly composed polyphony or homophony. But when the composer strives to effect rather than substance, then the line is drawn.

I doubt that anyone walks out of Midnight Mass at Westminster Cathedral saying that they hated the music. They may not have found it to be to their taste. Catholics walk out of Mass every Sunday having heard music that was picked for them to like it. And a lot of it is hated. Choosing music that people like to keep them happy is the slippery slope that Catholic musicians ski down because they are directed to do so by clergy who fear rather than lead.

It's not a "ministry" of music. Let's get rid of Protestant titles for liturgical functions.

"CharlesW, it seems to me that you belong to a church that is known for very orthodox music and yet you have a very different opinion as far as what the music should be in the Roman parish that you are employed by...now maybe I'm wrong "

Yep. you're wrong. I use chant, Anglican music, French, and good contemporary music when I can find it. But I am not an extremist. I don't go overboard with any particular school of music. The music I use is generally regarded as, "good." However, any of it carried to an extreme would not be so good. I take issue with the extremists who only want to do chant, and nothing else. That's the surest way I know of to burn everyone out and relegate it to the dust bin. It seems that in previous "chant revivals," it's been the chant extremists who have been the most effective in killing chant.

Now as for guitars... I have been praying for a guitar plague for years that would cause them all to crumble at the first strum. ;-) How we ever got to the point of accepting them in mass is beyond me. I remember their introduction in the 60s, but also remember that the times were crazy and affected everything else. What's the old saying that if you remember the 60s, you weren't really there?

Certainly there has been an historical battle between music that entertains (whether it be classical or popular) and music that suitably conveys prayer. It may be heretical to say, but I've heard some praise band songs that are much more prayerful than some Classical Mass parts. Of course the sentiment and sincerity of the music are not the only factor in music for the Catholic Mass and Office. The text must adhere to what the Church prescribes. Also the nature of liturgical prayer (vs devotional prayer) must be taken into account. I think it is here that average parishioners are confused the most. Because they have not been properly catechized about the ritual nature of the Mass, they view any music and text that is not directly a prayer from the heart as lacking in the proper spirit. As the Church tried to simplify matters and get the people to pray the Mass along with the ministers (yes the term is used in the rubrics), not enough teaching was done about the prayers of the Mass. People's individual heart-felt devotions were snatched away from them and they were told to pay attention and pray along. Perhaps there was a good reason for this, but I think a real problem was created along with it. When one prays a liturgical prayer, one becomes part of a huge group -- yes the Body, if you will -- and the prayer can be heartfelt and intense, but musically this larger group ethos should also be underlined. Good polyphony or more modern beautiful settings reflect the prayer as being a gift from all humanity. A sappy praise song, however, is much more immediate for a 21st century parishioner, and that's why they like the stuff so darn much. To reach our ideal, we must remember (dare I say resolve at this time of year?) to charitably teach our fellow Catholics how to hear the chant, the polyphony, the Pärt, the Messiaen, etc. in a fashion that will make sense to them. Our leaders must also stop trying to make the Catholic Mass into something that it is not, our version of the Baptist prayer meeting. Last night, this hit home so hard. I attended Mass and heard one of those African priests give a seemingly 3-hour homily on nothing, while walking around the sanctuary. I almost left, but remembered that I had an obligation. The music director, who remains a friend, but makes me crazy, chose NO Marian hymns at all, but rather reused a number of Christmas Eve's carols. I don't like leaving Mass feeling like that.

Ok, I rambled...

The parish to which I actually belong uses Byzantine chant. I only work for the Latins. :-) They are an entirely different culture - or at least they had a distinct culture at one time. For the Latin parish, I use what I mentioned above - chant, Anglican pieces, French compositions, good contemporary when I find it, etc.

Michael, You Should have been at the praise Band Xmas Eve service somewhere very close to where I am right now= they went out to Joy to the World, but with the Three Dog Night Version stuck in the middle of it!!

Donna

joy to the fishies!

They actually did this once before several years ago, only much longer version. Unfortunately, there is nada I can do about it. I have no control over this group.
They are entirely their own little fiefdom. So sad.
Donna

And what a bullfrog he was!

A Minister of Music in a mainline Church, for example, is almost invariably a learned musician and often also an ordained person as well.

There are those now who appear in Baptist churches whose main connection to music is the ability to play a trumpet and wave their arms during congregational song. They are also called Ministers of Music.

The title Minister of Music or the all-enveloping phrase Ministry of Music covers also those who play Three Dog night in many Catholic churches.

The title Organist or Choirmaster or Choir Director or Schola Director in the Catholic Church indicates a person who has studied and is a professional in most cases. This is different than ministering through music, which may be done by a child with a harmonica.

Musicians of ability have always been set aside in the church and in the Hebrew Temple before the church. Lowering them to being part of the untrained laity in making music by refering to them as being part of the ministry of music when the ministry of music is full of unprofessional amateur music making is not helping anyone.

Maybe we could go back to the days when all choirmasters at cathedrals were also ordained priests. Palestrina was a notable exception.

Thanks, guys. You made me laugh! Most of the time I'm just gritting my teeth when I hear them in the church. So irreverent, to use the least offensive word I can think of at the moment. One of these days, if I can figure out how to do it- I'll post the words to some of the music they do. Perhaps it could be adapted to some plainsong melodies! A great project for frogman. LOL
Donna

Ken, Oh yeah, then you have to add Baptisms to their already heavy work load! ; - )

I believe the word means "servant" doesn't it?

Giving DOM jobs to clergy sounds like a bad tendency, though a good idea in the small number of cases where their ability clearly warrants it, e.g. Msgr. Georg Ratzinger at Regensburg and Father Pierre Paul at St. Peter's. It does help, however, to have musicians amongst the cathedral clergy. At Westminster, for example, Msgr. Phillip Whitmore, previously a Music Fellow of Magdalene College, Oxford, was Precentor for a number of years before he went to Rome; Bishop Bernard Longley, another musician, served as an Auxiliary there until he became Archbishop of Birmingham; and Fr. Michael Durand, currently one of the Cathedral chaplains, is also a musician. None of them are Praise'n'Worship types [understatement]. Their presence reflects Westminster's musical sympathies and, I suspect, has reinforced them. If any Diocesan Bishops reading this thread are looking for ways in which they can foster the Church’s musical-liturgical traditions: it’s worth considering the next time you have a cathedral post going.

Francis: it's frighteningly awful. I played for the White Mass in the fall and the strictures placed on the music were grotesque. The only thing that a serious musician in this archdiocese can do is relocate.