Etiquette for Job Posting Topics
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    It's difficult finding a job out there, so we are VERY fortunate to be able to use this forum to discover job listings, due to connections or churches electing to list them here. Especially since the AGO went private with their job listings. That is why I'm VERY concerned about how some on this forum are treating those few job listings we get.

    It seems like every job listing on this forum has received a follow-up comment from a poster who wants to say something bad about the position. I appreciate the spirit: the commenter has had a bad experience or second hand inside information (I think we used to call this "gossip"?) and they want to save others from what they would consider inconvenience or a bad situation. I myself go off of my intuition (Rule 1: never take a job at a church that wants to grow) and my own circle of gossipy colleagues in the area (taking their opinions with a heaping of salt of course).

    But let's put ourselves in the shoes of a pastor looking for a fine new organist: he may be familiar with the CMAA's work through reputation, so he comes here to make an account and post it. He looks at some other listings to get an idea of what to write, and what does he see for other churches? Accusations of mismanagement, abuse, or perfidy. This is a priest who will say "Wow, I guess advertising with NPM won't get me as good a musician, but I don't want this parish's skeletons being aired on an international forum!"

    So let me be blunt: You're NOT the sole Nathan the Prophet whose job it is to bring to light the evils of a church or pastor and demand punishment. You DON'T have a right to mock their website or prior program. If someone takes a job offering $60/week, isn't paying for weddings and funerals, and has a website full of guitars and nuns without habits, that's their own fault.

    Let me also suggest a simple etiquette for these postings:
    1) Say something nice about the job if you have something to share.
    2) If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.
    3) If you have something important and negative to say, I propose it would be worthwhile to say something to the effect of "I have information on this posting that will be of interest to anyone applying. You may e-mail me at...."

    I think the 3rd rule allows for maintaining a welcoming atmosphere for employers while still allowing those who "need to get in their say" to do so. Although I would still say, it's not an urgent matter for you to tell someone the church didn't send you a message after 4 days or that it only pays $3,000/year. I just don't want to see this site wind up repelling employers.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Gavin, this is right, and I've cleaned up some listings.

    I recall a friend I had years ago who was warned by everyone not to take a certain job: the boss is a tyrant, thief, corruption everywhere, disaster guaranteed etc. He took it anyway. He was enormously happy and the job launch an amazing career. In other words, it would appear that different people have different responses to difference situations.
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    Thank you, Gavin. This is part of remembering that this forum isn't just a conversation between us. It's a conversation that's potentially viewed by anyone in the world. And let's respect that different people have different goals and requirements in their music career/ministry.
  • mjballoumjballou
    Posts: 994
    Oh no, I'm agreeeing with Gavin again!

    Thanks, Gavin, for a well-written and thoughtful posting. I've been on both sides of the desk for hiring and appreciate your tactful suggestions.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    I do think it important to be able to post an e-mail for the private exchange of information about a particular job. There are some toxic workplaces out there, and it doesn't hurt to be forewarned. It is true that a placement which doesn't work for one individual, may be perfect for someone else. Of course, beware of some of the buzzwords in some of the listings, such as:

    diverse = you will deal with a good sampling of nut cases
    multi-cultural liturgy = something the oompa loompas could go for
    contemporary service = see diverse and include those who can't distinguish between Protestant and Catholic
    community oriented - God only knows what this one means
    prevailing wage = You will get to like Ramen, since it's all you will be able to afford
    we have a new keyboard = run for the nearest exit
    We don't discriminate... = It's not safe to have your children around some of our members
  • Te Deum Laudamus
    Posts: 34
    What happens when a post is sent, it is not libelous, it is factual, it does not name names or details and solicits contact should anyone want to discuss a certain position and STILL gets removed? I hardly think that's fair or in the best interest of the assistance that could possibly be shared in this forum. I am now at a complete loss having posted something twice, the second time was almost a direct rewording of the posting of anotehr member whose post was not removed, and now both times it has been removed...I am trying to warn people of a position that needs to be approached with extreme caution and then some,
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,514
    I think the point that is being made is that many of us would like to keep the atmosphere as hospitable as possible, so that potential employers will feel comfortable soliciting applications from among us.
  • Daniel Bennett PageDaniel Bennett Page
    Posts: 837
    And remember the words of the immortal Alice Roosevelt Longworth, "I you don't have anything good to say about anyone, come sit next to me!"
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    Hah! LOL. I love it!
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    As someone who has commented in the vein that Gavin found so disturbing, my first reaction is "why is this posted on a forum instead of some other list?" I appreciate and will abide by the general wishes, but at the same time, my Irish gets up when someone tells me what NOT to say...
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    One possible rule for posting negative announcements about parishes and experiences: real name required.
  • jb2000
    Posts: 3
    I think that anyone who has something relevant to say about a job should say it, good or bad or neutral. It is apparent that someone must be posting jobs off the NAPM website. I think that should stop more thatnI think folks should have to be "nice" about some job or job experience.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Why? Why should NPM jobs not be posted here? Do they not deserve a hearing? Are the people here not smart enough to avoid a bad job on their own?
  • Nick BotkinsNick Botkins
    Posts: 31
    NPM charges a fee for listing a position - seems a little funny for a CMAA member to copy and paste to this forum...
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    If I'm going to apply for a job, I want to hear any and all information that anyone may have, think they have, have heard about, or read written on the stall of a Walmart men's room regarding that job.

    I will then interview with all of that information in the back of my head - sometimes knowing something helps one to connect certain dots during an interview that they might not have been able to connect otherwise. Let's get all the info out there and let folks sort through the good, the bad, and the ugly on their own.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,220
    It could be inappropriate to cross-post the item if the parish only wanted NPM members to know about the job, but that's probably not very common. Otherwise, a job listing copied into this forum gets some extra "free" exposure, which is a harmless gift.

    On the other hand, if there are many individual threads about job postings, it could produce clutter on the CMAA forum. Perhaps there is some way to avoid that.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    The job postings at NPM are on a public bulletin board, just as the job postings in the AGO magazine are public. None of the postings on NPM stated CMAA Members need not apply, nor stated that only contemporary music would be enjoyed.

    However, the AGO website postings of jobs are not public...and none of these that I posted are from there, even though I can read them myself, being a member.

    Chonak's right - I suggest that only full-time jobs be listed, under most circumstances.


    I agree that this forum may be better off if members had to use real names on their profile page and a working email address. A non-posting membership for those not willing to give their real name and email could also be available.

    It would also be very helpful in understanding some posts if not many post if the profile was:

    BOLD = required for posting membership - others optional, but helpful

    Name: Noel Jones, AAGO
    email: noeljones@usit.net
    City, State: Englewood, TN US
    Religion: Roman Catholic
    Home Church: Pending
    Church Musician at: Pending
    Director, Organist or Other: Organist/Director
    Employed or Volunteer:

    I would estimate that the tenor of many postings already reflect whether or not members are currently employed in a Roman church and paid as well...and who are not and may, for a variety of reasons, venting. Why not make it easier to confirm that when considering the nature of the post?
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    If I'm going to apply for a job, I want to hear any and all information that anyone may have, think they have, have heard about, or read written on the stall of a Walmart men's room regarding that job.

    Get the information yourself rather than encouraging others to drag the good name of a parish, priest, and congregation members through the mud in a very public manner.

    Look, I really have no problem with gossip. Sure, it's a sin, but it's a really fun one. What I have a problem with is the pragmatic aspects of this. Pastors WILL NOT want their jobs listed on a forum that makes a habit of trashing every job listed here. Is this not a matter of simple economics? Treat the customer right and you'll get more. Paix (and Michael and everyone else), you won't READ ABOUT these jobs anymore if people keep behaving in such a manner. Does that not concern you at all????
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    I haven't heard anyone ask if we really want to be in the job posting business. Are we duplicating what's available elsewhere? I see the AGO postings, which have gone private. I don't see the NPM postings, but never paid much attention to them when I did see them some years ago. Are these postings common knowledge or available whether we post them or not?
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    First of all, I don't believe the word "gossip" applies here. "Gossip" would be needlessly talking about personal information of someone on the parish staff, such as "I heard that the youth minister lives with her boyfriend." This is legitimate information sharing, in my point of view. And when you say "Get the information yourself", how do you suggest one would do that, especially for a job posting in a city far away where one has no contacts?

    I hold to my original sentiment - I want to know it all. I hardly think "every" job gets dragged through the mud here. I've only seen it a few times where there were, in my opinion, legitimate concerns voiced.
  • G
    Posts: 1,401
    First of all, I don't believe the word "gossip" applies here. "Gossip" would be needlessly talking about personal information of someone on the parish staff, such as "I heard that the youth minister lives with her boyfriend." This is legitimate information sharing, in my point of view.
    This is certainly true, but I think it ought to be done discretely, as in "if anyone can tell me... please email privately..." or "if anyone would like to know..... please email me privatelyat..."

    In a similar vein, I am in the process of leaving my place of employ.
    (If I thought it would be of interest to anyone here, I would post, as it is, this is Chicagoland, if you are interested email me privately, my addy's in my profile)

    Another organist in town, a friend, asked me about the job, and about the parish politics and personal dynamics of the situation.

    He expressed misgivings about someone involved, with whom he would need to deal quite a bit.

    I thought it was important for him to know that this person, though yes, a difficult personality, is good and wise and generous and competent, (while driving me crazy...8oO)

    So far, so good, right?

    But i also thought he ought to know that there is someone else who is usually responsible for the unpleasantness the more difficult person takes the heat for.

    This other person has smilingly lied, forged missives "from the pastor," undermined colleagues, taken things that belong to others, smirked editorially while conveying legitimate Church teachings...

    Made my tenure here very uncomfortable in many respects, but I have not even vented to my husband, (yeah, I almost bit my tongue in half more than once,) as that would be gossip.

    But didn't my potential replacement deserve a warning?

    I dunno, forgive the rambling...

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    I still think many of these jobs are re-postings, not postings. Duplicating what's available elsewhere seems pointless.
    And I agree, I would also want to know the "good, bad, & ugly" if I were interested in applying.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    If you want to know the 'good, bad and ugly,' please do so through the private email. That way you also get a better idea whom you are really talking to. The person who wants to help and share his experience in that parish can simply say that in the thread and say please email me privately. That way you also don't have to hurt your reputation for your future job.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Let me apologize on behalf of the CMAA and the admins of this board for being slow to grasp the responsibilities associated with job postings. This has been an problem from the beginning and it is mostly technical in nature: the board does not provide an option to close discussion in one particular category. The board rules have been update: "Special rules apply to job postings. Additional commentary following the posting must deal with verifiable facts only (e.g., position filled, bilingual a must, etc.) and not attempt to bias the applicant selection process. Any additional commentary will be deleted."

    All extant job positing have been made rule compliant.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    Mia, the last time I looked, I don't think anyone left you in charge.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    Sorry, I had to leave for a moment and couldn't finish my last post. It is perfectly legitimate to collect as much information as possible. Granted, it would be good if a vehicle existed to communicate privately, rather than in an open forum. I suspect private e-mails would produce much more detailed information. But if I want to know "good, bad and ugly," I would think I, or anyone else, would have a legitimate right and interest in seeking that information.
  • John B
    Posts: 16
    Thank you CMAA! I agree that this site is meant to help qualified musicians match up with hiring institutions, not a "gossip column" or a place for ex-employees and people whose applications were rejected to vent their frustrations. The folks who post such comments should consider that potential employers also look at this site, and make note of the attitudes that such postings reflect. God Bless all of you who seek to serve the Church in a loving and professional manner.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Thank you. May I ask what happened to the CMAA jobs website? That would be preferable.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    We never finished the development on that. If someone wants to pick it up, great!
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