Hey,

The organist of one of the Catholic Cathedrals of a major US city (I don't wish to say which) gets $300k. I think this is appropriate, though the scale of other musicians pales in comparison (too low). I don't wish to invite "hate" in the younger folks parlance of today (haters=the jealous) and I applaud musicians making a good salary, and in certain towns, that money does not make one rich. But, there are a few plum jobs, and perhaps there should be more. We don't seem to mind athletes making truly obscene money, we don't bat an eye, but an organist making 300k is just too much for some.

Some churches do pay well. Unfortunately in this area, they are not Catholic churches.

300k. Dang.

Although that seems like a lot, it's the kind of figure that helps change perceptions.

Five years at $300k, and they could watch me sail off into retirement. :-)

I'm uneasy with the idea that Organists/DoM's are entitled to full-time jobs with the trimmings. In an ideal world everyone would have enough money to spend most of their time on one thing they believe to be worthwhile, but that world exists in a parallel universe that has little to do with the economic realities of the average Catholic parish. I have known a number of professional musicians with part-time jobs at Churches who have ensured the delivery of good liturgical music (some of a very high quality indeed). Some of them have been music teachers, others have had portfolio careers. I would go so far as to say that their wider experience and networks, and their freedom from economic dependence on parishes, has improved their work for the Church and the respect in which they are held.

I suspect the idea that musicians should be full-time employees is encouraged by observation of the various kinds of laity who have increasingly crept onto parish and diocesan payrolls, and by the idea that an expensive full-time post-graduate education is a desirable or necessary qualification for the job. This encourages musicians to think in terms of the career pattern of many of their fellow students in other disciplines, whose degrees are prized by companies with the money to pay good salaries. We need to cut our educational and career cloth to match the monies available.

If you live in some places (like the good sections of major US cities), $300K may not be very much.

They are not entitled to anything. They can earn the right to a living wage by developing a program that involves a large number of people who participate in the liturgy of music.

If she directs a choir, that's not enough. But if she:

Direct an adult choir that grows in size, for example, from 16 to 46.
Direct and train a children's choir that does more than just sing songs, but learns to read Gregorian Chant and modern notation.
Organize an string ensemble with volunteer players and rehearse them in things like the Domine Deus from the Vivaldi Gloria with soloist & choir
Create a music booklet, including composing chant, for regular wednesday evening evening prayer services, rehearses the children's choir and leads it.
Organize a brass quintet, arranging hymns for them as well as music with the choir.
Create a funeral choir and lead it.
Involve the choir in singing at weddings to bring in money for the choir program.

Now...do you want this all done in a haphazard way, due to the fact the the persom doing it also has to have a full-time job?

No, that's not what we are talking about.

We are talking about why a person might be paid to be a full-time musician at a church when the pastor wants a big program and will pay for it. If they are only doing a choir and that's it...then full-time would not seem to be justified.

fnj - given your addition of the "...when the pastor wants a big program and will pay for it..." clause we would seem to be in agreement! The age of miracles is not yet ended.

Mr. Z,

Your comment that a Catholic cathedral musician makes $300,000 is bothersome to me, especially since it is unsubstantiated.

Damn... Where'd all these bees come from?

300k is a bit outrageous. If it was a DoM, I would feel a bit better about it. I'd love to see the job description of this organist position.

I agree with Ian in light of the financial demands of institutions these days. There comes a point of no return, and the educational system has arrived. Diplomas are not worth the money they are demanding this day and age. It's sorta like paying 100k for a bicycle just to get around town. At some point people have to wake up and stop mortgaging their lives on an education.

On the other hand the question begs to be asked "what are reasonable demands and compensation for a church music position?" If the organist was composing and playing a new piece every week, I don't think 300k is unreasonable, but that is a whole nother level of organist if you know what I mean. And I think private patrons would/could/should step up for the sake of art. It would be amazing if church music of excellence got the same notoriety that other forms of fine art attain.

Doctors and their salaries are another subject. We live in a world where the medical profession has approached a godlike status. Can you compare a church musician to a doctor? Well , to start, one cares for a temporal body and the other tends to an eternal soul. Does that justify a godlike status for the musician? I don't think so. Nor does the doctor deserve one.

The bottom line is that church musicians should be able to make a just and fair living, even full time. How many people truly understand the discipline and time committment it requires to rehearse and perform music of excellence, especially when the talent pool are mostly amateurs? Numerous of the clergy who have hired me over the years (the few who appreciate the importance of excellent music) don't even realize what it takes in terms of time, talent, dedication and knowledge to execute the requirements. Musicians are in general, misunderstood and underpaid. That is true for the lot of them, but in particular, church musicians.

Starving Artist. Who coined that term?

So where does this all lead? Heaven knows. But to those who can find a full time job in church music (especially in the Catholic Church) and balance all the spinning plates to maintain it and accentuate the beauty of the liturgy, well, more power to you.

In the end, is there a monetary value that can be placed upon the liturgy and the due that is given to God in worship? Perhaps the Levitical order would be a good springboard. Does anyone know the history on them?

compare a church musician to a doctor?

No. The priests are more like the doctors.

Given the stories sprinkled throughout this Forum some would argue that ...
the musicians are more like the Candy Stripers
("Can I fluff your pillow for you?" "That would be nice; you make my time here so much more enjoyable.")
or maybe the Nurses
("I want that patient prepped stat." "Yes doctor.")
or at best the Nurse Practicioners
("Given the symptoms, do you concur that ..." "No, it would be better to ...").

:-)

Can anyone anywhere verify that any Catholic Cathedral musician anywhere is paid over $100,000?

If there is a crumb of truth to the $300,000 claim, more than one person would know.

Trinity Church, NYC, the richest church in the US, it is said, offered $125,000 a year to a British organist who then backed out, as that would not pay sufficiently for he and his family to live in NYC.

$125,000 in NYC would be equivalent to about $35-40,000 in a medium to large size US city. Place is WAY expensive.

Posted without further comment:

http://finance.yahoo.com/career-work/article/108148/stressful-jobs-that-pay-badly?mod=career-salary_negotiation

Notice what comes in at No. 5.

Mr Z

Talking peoples specific salary is just none of anyone's business.

Side bar.

The Novus Ordo Mass and its "invitation," the opening for less difficult music styles to become main fare for our churches, has - though perhaps not totally be design - an element of "anti-elitism" attached to it and so by extension, a diminishing of the value for the requisite skill set to provide a more, shall we say, elevated (elevating?) service by CMAA standards. Thus, with less erudition required, the pay grade is diminished. No brain surgery here. Someone once said 'if you want to find the root cause, follow the money trail.' I won't be as cynical as to suggest that in the church money is the prime motivator, but it does come into play somewhat. Maybe more than I would want to allow for, normally speaking.

A few years ago, while still a dedicated slave to the Vat II liturgical mentality (though always highly suspect of its fruits and by products, even then) I remember visiting with a group of evangelical friends who had another friend visiting from the another big city, and this young woman was the daughter of pre Vat ll (trained, classicist) musician, previously well stationed I gathered, and the perspective was eye opening, This type of musician I had heard about but did not actually know any, and would have been a somewhat dinosaur to me at the time, and it wass this type of musician who had been, en masse, totally and unceremoniously, cast aside as part of all this liturgical "renewal." The pain in the young woman's face and voice was palpable when she related the injustice and shortsightedness of the Church then. I also knew then that I was speaking with a well educated young Catholic who actually knew what she was talking about concerning these issues, another rarity, and she seemed to feel the issue was far from settled. So eye opening, disconcerting, and yet refreshing as it hinted at a church I longed to know again, or perhaps for the first time.

Well, things are not overall so much better now, but at least these "cast aside" musicians can see some light at the end of the tunnel, and by and large, the same folks willing to hire this kind of musician are also the ones who can appreciate what he/she is worth, and they, from what I have seen, do attempt to provide some sort of real salary. I don't want to see that positive trend undermined, especially here, and I am quite sure most would agree. So, again, this "side bar" has been some sort of attempt to put forth the idea that some of this promotion of more questionable music has some financial angle attached to it, however ill conceived or however much it backfires. There is also the "anti-intellectual" aspect. The victory to be won is in educating the children, challenging them, and rescuing them from the clutches of so called "liturgists" and liturgical "reeducation camps," i.e., liturgy conferences and Catichetical conferences. We need to start our own, and start shifting the focus towards the children.

Frogman,

A flip response would be that we’re stingy with our money. There’s some truth in that, to the extent that our institutional willingness to pay for appropriately skilled musicians is often limited. This isn’t restricted to Church musicians – I know a number of British chorus masters who have spent part of their career in the US, where their skills tend to be better rewarded than at home. I hazard a guess that this is partly a legacy of the time when music was prized as a gentle social accomplishment. The problem is exacerbated in the Church by two historical legacies: the popularity of the Low Mass and the post-Conciliar dumbing-down of liturgy and music both tend to devalue the skills of properly trained organists, choral directors and singers. The consequence of this is that significant numbers of Catholic parishes don’t pay their musicians anything, ad wouldn’t dream of ever doing so (weddings and funerals are no exception, as the money for these doesn’t come from parish funds). The consequence is all too often not to be born.

On the up side, there is a tradition of excellence, centred on institutions such as Westminster Cathedral and the Brompton Oratory and reflected in other places, that is recognised in payments to DoMs, organists and sometimes singers. So, too, the proximity of the Anglican choral tradition is an encouragement (there is, in fact, much movement of musicians between the two).

The net effect is that paid Catholic DoM jobs tend to be part-time, and are often not as well paid as their Anglican equivalents. It’s no surprise, then, that professional Catholic Church musicians often go to two churches on a Sunday: one for work and one for Mass. Catholic stinginess aside, the portfolio career is a recognised work-pattern for British musicians. Outside of the BBC ensembles, few musicians are salaried as such, and there’s a lot to be said for the breadth of experience and independence that this work-pattern gives a Church musician. Of course, it helps that the post-graduate degree mills haven’t got an expensive stranglehold on church music here.

I guess, as so often, that the truth lies somewhere between the extremes. I admire the American spirit of enterprise and responsibility that makes proper funding of music more likely than over here (and the tax regime that encourages it), and heartily approve of centres of excellence that can afford full-time DoMs to foster our musical-liturgical heritage. However, I’m cautious about the potential burden on other parishes and dioceses of salaried professionalisation, especially when its cost is inflated by the pernicious influence of the liturgical-academic complex; and I’d like Church musicians to think about the positive benefits of the portfolio career.

Regards,

Ian.

BTW – do you have anything to do with the French National Church in San Francisco? I went to Mass there the other year and liked the music.

(off-topic) IanW, see Discussion 2191
http://musicasacra.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2191

eft.

Don't underestimate the value of music and your services.

The Levites and priests are supposed to work arm in arm (it just happens that the priesthood (and I speak in generalities) has divorced itself from their true mate (music married to liturgy) and have been chasing after a substitute. That is why we have scandal. Their Bride IS the church (and ultimately the liturgy) but she is not being 'bedecked' as such)

m-w.com

Main Entry: be·deck
Pronunciation: \bi-ˈdek, bē-\
Function: transitive verb
Date: 1565
1 : to clothe with finery : deck
2 : decorate 2