Noel,

This is AWESOME!!

Wow. Fantastic dude! You really chant! (rock)

re the St Gregory hymnal, there's a useful related article at:

http://www.adoremus.org/0604LucyCarroll.html

Montani's "pruning" for liturgical style, while perhaps offensive musically, makes a great range of wonderful music realistically available at a parish level and hence also supports full musical development in the concert hall.

There are four volumes that we anticipate at this time. We do plan to offer it as one book eventually, but a lot of decisions were made with practicality in mind. So many choir members complain about heavy books that we decided to keep these to about 50 sheets of papre. The large size, 8" by 10" makes the music readable by older eyes but even more so in less than ideal lighting....which describes most choir lofts! The inclusion of multiple versions of the Ave Verum and the Adoramus Te are to help ground newcomers to singing in Latin and renew the ability of those who have sung on Latin in the use of pure vowels. In the next volume there will be versions of the Ave Maria for the same reason.

At this point we do not see any of these volumes have a theme, rather each one should stand on its own as increasing the repertoire of a choir.

We recommend that for an organist, two copies be purchased, taken to Staples and have them spiral bind them. That helps with the page turns.

I just got my copy of the Choirbook. It came very fast. Thanks.

We are digging into Volume 2 right now, interested in seeing what kind of commercial response there is...thanks to those that have already purchased and those who have taken advantage of the free downloads....

Spread the word. We have talked here locally about offering a Parish Book of Chant and Catholic Choirbook workshop to introduce local Catholics to the alternate possibilities that they have to the usual stuff and know that they will hear about and walk out with an info sheet that talk about Musica Sacra, the Forum and Chabanel and Fr. Weber and Fr. Kelly.

Book 2 will have more easy music along with the Miserere Allegri in the first edition based upon the English performances at Kings College in the 1950s. This has been authenticated by Roy Goodman, leader of the Brandenburg Consort, who was the boy soprano soloist in the famous recording. The thought was that they sang from the Ivor Jones Novello edition. They didn't.

Plus the Ave Verum of Byrd. And possibly the Hear My Prayer O Lord of Purcell.

This book has most of the music that formed the core of our schola's repertoire in its early years. It will a great help to any choir getting off the ground. Most of the music that has been tested as singable, beautiful, and manageable is right here between two covers. Excellent editing too: this book will save hours, days, and weeks in hunting through catalogs and links.

"9cat on my lap- cannot type with both hands)"

You don't want to know what I thought you were saying until I realized that you just missed the shift key for the opening parenthesis.

Back on topic, I have some hope that I can soon start a new choir for which we can use these.

(Save the Liturgy, Save the World)

Here is the error:

folks expect to understand what they are hearing.

Just because they don't 'understand' the words at the moment doesn't mean it is not effective music or not worship or not appropriate.

Nevertheless, we can help them out by providing translation if possible. Someone suggested that I print translations in our Sunday Bulletin. Great Idea!

"My Catholic choir sang the Gilmont's Ave Verum just last week, but we sang as a prayer, rather than a concert piece. That means we sang it in English."

Funniest. Statement. Ever.

In fact I would wager that one piece by Palestrina would have a permanent effect on one's soul over hearing a hundred second or third rate vernacular works.

The view expressed in the original post is a product of the influence of NPM....I did a quick search and this organist is a member and holds certification from it and the AGO...he's a good guy, just of a mindset that most Catholic musicians have based upon what they have read and been taught.

We need a venue to show them what is possible. Unfortunately, it is very difficult if not impossible, to provide music for a liturgy without having to bow to the expectations of the congregation, rather than to permit them to experience something different of quality.

It is difficult to deal with, "you can come and sing. Now, you must do this, this and this because that's what we are used to."

Charles

The argument many of us here present isn't English vrs Latin ... It's content: the quality of music AND quality of translation (sound theology) AND poetic rendering. Show me an excellent piece of chant or polyphony that embody all three and I will be thrilled. Many English translations fall off my list on the weak or errant theology before I even get to parse it's musical excellence. I always judge musical content irrespective of theological soundness just to give it a fighting chance and almost always the music is sorely lacking. The ratio of good Latin to English works is probably about 100 to 1. After that argument the excellent music is almost all public domain. (free) This seems like a no-brainer to the serious minded musician in the liturgical realm.

An aside to that point, I am thinkink of publishing all my original 50 or so compositions (English prayer songs for guitar) under the title "Please Don't Play These During The Catholic Mass".

Hmmm... please correct me if I am wrong, but some of your comments leave me unsure of your position at times. If it was just ribbing Noel privately it would be different, but your comments are presented in a public forum and can greatly impact others who may not be as well anchored as Noel.

In my situation, I am unable to do very little of the Latin repertoire, but that is more because the music is much more challenging than the English repertoire, but we are working toward it. But that doesn't alter my long-term goals or the ideal for excellence or more importantly what the Church prefers and requests as music native to her rite.

It is statements like this that give me pause.

It's not a matter of what music or translation is, or is not superior.

...because that is TOTALLY the matter as far as I see it! If those aren't the criteria for what we do or do not allow (musically) into the liturgy, than what else is there?

And I don't think it's the "Latin" in the "over-eager fanatic" syndrome that is the problem as much as it's the inability to come under a Pastors authority in the introduction and execution of Latin music in good order. If one threatens or challenges the position of a priest it doesn't matter what kind of music is in question.

I've just woken up (busy week followed by a class this AM in using MIDI to expand stop lists of pipe organs (HORRORS!)) and not not fully able to comprehend the last few messages so I put off responding for a bit.

But we have a red-blooded, meat-eating faith that has been restricted to a vegetarian diet of liturgy and music by the seminaries starting in 1970 and continuing in most today.

It's tofu city, not because of Latin...just people in the pews who have never been exposed to anything but tofu and see the blood dripping from the meat and run in horror.

It was not a tofu Jesus that hung on the cross.

It's all about us...when it should be about Him.

WE OUR
WE OUR
WE MY

WE
OUR WE
OUR OUR
OUR OUR

Source:
WE The bread we offer you is blessed and broken,
US OUR And it becomes for us our spirit’s food.
WE Over the cup we bring, your Word is spoken;
US Make it your gift to us, your healing blood.
OUR Take all that daily toil, plants in our heart’s poor soil,
WE Take all we start and spoil, each hopeful dream.
WE WE The chances we have missed, the graces we resist,
Lord, in thy Eucharist, take and redeem.

In Bread We Bring You Lord

WE OUR In bread we bring you Lord, our body's' labour
WE OUR In wine we offer you our spirit's grief.
WE MY We do not ask you, Lord, who is my neighbour?
But stand united now, in one belief.
WE For we have gladly heard your Word, your holy Word
OUR WE And now in answer, Lord, our gifts we bring.
OUR OUR Our selfish hearts make true, our failing faith renew,
OUR OUR Our life belongs to you, our Lord and King.

WE The bread we offer you is blessed and broken,
US OUR And it becomes for us our spirit’s food.
WE Over the cup we bring, your Word is spoken;
US Make it your gift to us, your healing blood.
OUR Take all that daily toil, plants in our heart’s poor soil,
WE Take all we start and spoil, each hopeful dream.
WE WE The chances we have missed, the graces we resist,
Lord, in thy Eucharist, take and redeem.

"gasp, horrors - Latin", at least in our area this happens lot more than "gasp, horrors - ENGLISH."

"I am being paid not to comment on certain issues..." So true, but it won't last forever.

May I offer a short defense of the quotes presented. Who here can fault anyone for wanting understand what they are praying? I certainly can't. When he says that it was a prayer, I really believe he meant that it was real communication where both parties understood the prayer. Yes, we need more Latin in the Catholic schools and more in the liturgy, but belittling this person gets us nowhere. I'd rather argue that in corporate worship, an elevated language offers us a means of moving towards God. Latin is the language of the Latin Rite and we should gradually work towards using more of it by helping people understand what it means.

CharlesW. I'm in the 'famous' Baltimore diocese. (until recently I didn't know much about our diocese.)

Noel, why people before Vatican II didn't like latin and leave the church? Is it because they were not taught well, or really because the language itself that they didn't like?

I know there are high school students who are not catholics trying to learn latin and parents trying to have their children learn it too, so they can be better with English and SAT.

It seems that in secular world latin is seen as an educational and also a beautiful language.
The language of the Church seemed to be rejected by her own people.

From another list:

I attended a Roman Catholic funeral today. It was fairly well done, I suppose, as they go. But what struck me was the "wistful" nature of it all, for lack of a better term. The deceased was 85, and his family are still mostly practicing Catholics. The priest asked them for music suggestions, so they chose their favorite hymns. They were, as follows:
Opening - "Here I Am, Lord"
For the Psalm - "On Eagle's Wings"
Gospel Acc - "Celtic Alleluia"
Offertory - something similar
During communion - "Be Not Afraid" and the Hosea song "Return To Me" or whatever its exact title is
Closing - something similar

There actually was some congregational singing, but it was all of the mumbled sort--no one actually sang out. The spoken responses were all mumbled. As I said, it was wistful--staring-at-the-ceiling-and-meditating-on-life sort of wistful. The musicians were good. The pianist played quite well, and a flautist helped out here and there. The celebrant gave a nice homily; he had a good voice and was fairly enthusiastic about everything considering that he was a visiting priest. There was an organ, but it was not used. Apparently, it is used occasionally on Sunday.
But - as is obvious, there was nothing in the music that witnessed to the resurrection. It was simply a pastiche of everyone's favorite songs. It was utter uninspiring, but I guess if this is all one knows, then perhaps it can be inspiring. The music clearly was familiar to all the RC's, and so, I suppose, it was comforting.
So goes the state of religion these days . . . .

An English Prayer
(to be sung at all bars where a gathering of two or more CMAA'ers congregate, especially during colloquiems. If they insist on singing bar room songs in the church, then we insist on singing this prayer in bars.)

"Look What They've Done To My Song, Ma"

Look what they've done to my song, ma
Look what they've done to my song
Well it's the only thing that I could do half right
And it's turning out all wrong, ma
Look what they've done to my song.

Look what they've done to my brain, ma
Look what they've done to my brain
Well they picked it like a chicken bone
And I think I'm half insane, ma
Look what they've done to my song.

I wish I could find a good book to live in (roman graduale, perhaps?)
Wish I could find a good book
Will if I cold find a real good book
I'd never have to come out and look
Look what they've done to my song.

It'll be all right ma, maybe it'll be okay
Well if the people are buying tears I'll be rich someday, ma
Look what they've done to my song.

Ils ont change ma chanson ma
Ils ont change ma chanson
C'est la seule chose que je peuz faire
Et ce n'est pas bon ma
Ils ont change ma chanson.

Look what they've done to my song, ma
Look what they've done to my song
Well they tied it up in a plastic bag and they turned it upside down (Oregon Catholic Plastic)
Look what they've done to my song, ma.

Look what they've done to my song, ma
Look what they've done to my song
It's the only thing I could do all right and they turned it upside down
Look what they've done to my song, ma.

(c) Copyright 1970 by Kama Rippa Music


(O my gosh! I am soooooo sorry. Part of this song is not in English. It's in French. O well, when you sing this prayer you can skip the verse that is not in English!)

I had Inlines but didn't use them much. What really gives me away is that my favorite rock group is the original YES with Bill Bruford..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cqg3kcwAgso

I mentioned the Choirbook on PIPORG to let organists know of it's availability...and two really, really negative curmudgeons raked me over the coals -- "treacly music" and as a result I had a HUGE increase in free downloads and sales. If they would have kept quiet it would have been not half as good.

Should I send them complimentary copies? I just might.

Also, I use http://www.catholicprwire.com/ to send out notice of new music...think of them when you have something new to offer as well as workshops and things...they do get the word out.

However, I know that there are music magazines and groups that I and we should be reaching with PR...if you tell me who they are, I will create a list and make it available to all of us to use...