copyright question over ICEL texts
  • Brian Michael Page
    Posts: 152
    "The translation of the psalms used at mass is not by ICEL, but comes rather from the NAB translation of the Bible (which is also copyrighted, though not by ICEL). So I guess you would have to deal with the USCCB."

    The Psalms themselves, yes, I believe you're right. But the antiphons (responses) are ICEL (Lectionary) if I'm not mistaken.
    BMP
  • Brian Michael Page
    Posts: 152
    Incidentally, since rich_enough mentioned the NAB and the USCCB, Catholic podcasting, something which I'm also involved in, falls victim as well...

    One well-known very reputable podcaster, who does a daily scripture podcast, for a while was using the NAB, the Bible translation used in our Lectionary in the USA, until he was asked by the USCCB to stop using the NAB - for that same reason - the copyright issue. He's since used the Ignatius Bible (the translation that sells itself as being compliant to "Liturgiam Authenticam") for his podcast, and hasn't had a problem.
    BMP
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    They spend some time talking about the importance of the location of publication, and getting the approval of the relevant authorities (USCCB). When publishing on paper, that's going to be the physical location of the publishing company, right? The book itself might be printed in a different country, but I would expect that it's the location of the publishing house.

    And someone who's outside that jurisdiction can still purchase the book, whether or not it's approved by THEIR local authorities. I'd be shocked to find out that a publisher would refuse to ship to a location because it's outside the jurisdiction.

    I would assume that the reason for getting USCCB approval is to check that the setting is accurate and appropriate. Certainly that's a good thing. How hard would it be to find out what the criteria are that USCCB uses to give approval?

    And if ICEL receives a royalty percentage, then any percentage of $0 is $0. But that might mean you can't charge a handling fee either, maybe even not a site subscription fee.
  • Leland
    Posts: 32
    Carl writes, "I'd be shocked to find out that a publisher would refuse to ship to a location because it's outside the jurisdiction."

    But Stainer & Bell won't ship certain items to the United States because here we are in the jurisdiction of Hope Publishing Company.

    Leland
  • Andrew
    Posts: 22
    Why not just use the Graduale Romanum in Latin and the enormous repetoire of Latin Masses Gregorian Chant, polyphonic and 19th century romantic?

    The High Anglicans do this with good effect -- using the Book of Common Prayer or Anglican Missal (e.g. Saint Mary the Virgin, Church of the Resurrection in NYC, Saint Clement's in Philadelphia, Saint Mary Bourne Street, London).

    German Catholics do the same.

    From what I can discern most of the music in the Catholic parishes is at best mediocre nowadays -- if not downright trash.
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,032
    JulesVanNuffel,

    I tend to agree with you about the moral issue you bring up. I am simply trying to explain the law, which in many ways I dislike as much as you do. I would hate to see a website that offers free music but copyrighted text for the mass shut down, however wrongly, because of legal issues. Personal moral arguments may not be effective in a legal setting.

    BMP,
    Yes, even though the psalms texts are NAB, the antiphons are translated by ICEL - thanks for the correction.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    watch this space. Already the first Gloria is uploaded.

    (link fixed)
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    Superb! What an opportunity this presents for congregations to rebuild a sacred repertoire. This Gloria will be a snap for my congregation. We started with a responsorial Gloria (a necessary evil for a couple months), with the cantor singing the verses to a psalm tone and then moved on to singing the whole Gloria to a psalm tone, alternating between cantor and congregation. This will be an easy next step while we wait for a beautiful melismatic Gloria to appear.

    (N.B. - There are a couple extra slashes in the link above that will have to be removed in order for it to work).
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Here is Aristotle singing it.

    I told him that his episemas are too short. But he countered that he discovered the proper way to sing it by examining the subtle signs in a newly discovered 21st century digital manuscript.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Ok, here is some important news on this topic:

    Those of you who have followed the controversy with ICEL's copyright/royalty policies will be interested to know that we now have a solution. ICEL has agreed to not charge any royalties on free downloads of music, providing the source is acknowledged. That is very very great news.

    In effect, this puts ICEL's texts in the category of a creative commons, non-commercial attribution license. This means that the English-speaking Church can look forward to free music in the future, at long last. This will mean so much to financially strapped parishes and cathedrals. It means that when the new texts are promulgated, they won't have to spend many thousands of dollars more simply to have music to sing. This is a wonderful thing, and much credit goes to ICEL and to the Bishops with whom they worked on agreeing to this solution.

    There is still the matter of final approval, however. The texts are still not finally ready for release, and it might even be years before they are. Until that happens, ICEL has requested that the music available here be taken down until all publishers are given the go ahead to make music available in all forms. They will be made available again when that announcement is made.

    In the meantime, we are considering a solution that would offer music without the ICEL texts underneath. While it is disappointing that we can't offer these now, it is a great day for the Church that the ICEL texts will be available without royalty charges in this manner. This, in the long run, will have enormously beneficial results.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    A step forward in the right direction. However, as a composer of sacred music, IMHO, only poetic (music worthy), non-inclusive, theologically correct translations will make it attractive. Permanence is an even greater issue. The fact that it is free should be a given.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    "In the meantime, we are considering a solution that would offer music without the ICEL texts underneath. "

    Sounds like a job for a 21st Century Blessed Notker Balbulus....
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Jeffrey, in cases where the ICEL text is unchanged (Kyrie at least; Agnus too?), could you go ahead and publish now?
  • Aristotle EsguerraAristotle Esguerra
    Posts: 1,185
    Please check this page for further details; specifically the revision of the paragraph immediately underneath Plainsong English settings of the Mass Ordinary.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Well, I've redone the Gloria from the Parallel Mass and was getting ready to do the rest with the new text but now I can rest easy and just say:

    "Please note that all links below have been disabled until which time we are given permission to re-enable them."
  • Aristotle EsguerraAristotle Esguerra
    Posts: 1,185
    Keep them at the ready...when the blogosphere picks up the USCCB's announcement about implementing these new texts, those links will be re-enabled within hours.
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