No,
St. Thomas does not sing a Mass, it is characterized as a Episcopalian Choral Eucharist. St. Clement's, Philadelphia, however, does sing a Mass, and their podcasts are definitely worth listening to.

My point is NOT whether its a "Mass" or not, high church versus low church, protestant versus Catholic, my point is purely musical and artistic in that the sacred music offered by their choir is indeed superb and that they are universally considered to be one of the finest Men and Boy Choir in the world and certain in North America. I am also VERY aware of St. Clement's in Philly and it too is a fine choir of Men and Women and woorthy of hearing as well!

This posting is just to suggest for those CMAA members that are unaware and maybe interested in children's voices, that an extremely fine choir of this type, could be heard online, singing also on occasion, plainsong chant and Latin motets done extremely well. Listening to what boy choristers are capable of musically and artistically, IS of interested to some CMAA members and I am merely trying to be HELPFUL !

I now recall where I had my info from: The St. Thomas Website:

THE FEAST OF DEDICATION

OCTOBER 4, 2009

FESTAL EUCHARIST — 11 a.m.

Next week is a CHORAL EUCHARIST.

SARUM my problem with this is that this is not a church where you would go to hear a Mass sung....unless you are looking for a very liberal, English language service that is in some ways liturgical-appearing, but in reality does not follow a strict, outlined by the Roman Church, liturgy.

david
i couldnt have put it better. this poo-pooing the anglican church is one of the less attractive tendencies we traditional catholics tend to do. as church musicians we should always support churches, regardless of tradition, that seek to preserve the churches gift to mankind even as we ourselves are struggling to recapture it.
this negativity towards the efforts of such churches as st. thomas seems to be a bit of us biting our nose to spite our face.
we are, after all, on the same side.

Very Wise Words of appreciation by true and orthodox Catholics for the best, musically and theologically, from our separated brethren. If one had an outstanding choir such as this, which offered outstanding music at every beautiful, careful and reverent mass or eucharist, and believed in his heart that (but for the papacy) he, his faith and his church were as Catholic as anyone else, why in heaven's name would he leave it to become Roman when he sees what passes for liturgy in the Roman Church? What would he perceive himself to be gaining? I speak as one who has been there and learned (as we all know) that the missing ingredient is the Magisterium. With what agony has one watched in horror as the Anglican Church spent itself into theological and apostolic bankruptcy while running pall mall after every trendy ecclesial and social issue of the late XX. century! That agony has been equalled only by sitting through what-would-be Roman Rite liturgy in this country. Deo gratias for the Anglican Use. If it were not for that, I would be going to an Eastern Rite parish. One has even heard that in many places Latin masses (even of the Novus Ordo) and Gregorian chant are forbidden. How (will someone explain to me!) does anyone forbid the knowledge and practice of that which has been commanded by an Oecumenical Council (Vatican II) and successive Popes? There seems to be a missing ingredient here. Could it be Obedience? Those who expect it from others should first practice it themselves! Then may they and their admonishments be known to be Authentic!

As to the thread subject - I'm happy to have the opportunity to sing polyphonic ordinary settings in an Anglican context, and to sing Evensong. It maintains an element of our tradition that so many Catholic priests, liturgists and musicians spurn. Neither form of service requires me to say or sing anything unorthodox, and a Book of Common Prayer Evensong is a beautiful and moving form of prayer.

IanW,

I was pointing to North American Catholic Choir Schools, as St. Thomas is in the US. My reference to the Sistine Choir was to point out that the one place in the whole world we Catholics should expect the very best music would be the Mother Church of the Faith, which remains mediocre at best.

And you bring up an interesting point: The majority of thriving choir schools, residential or otherwise, seem to be modeled off of the Anglican Tradition, both within and outside the UK.

I'd like to point out that the oldest continuously operating choir school in the world is in England, at Canterbury. Now Anglican, it was established by our very own St. Augustine. Choir schools are the world's oldest "youth movement"!

For those commuting distance to the Boston area, the St. Thomas treble choristers will be giving a concert at Christ Church (Episcopal) in Cambridge on Friday evening, October 16.

Gavin neglected to include the Boston Archdiocesan Choir School in his list above. Only two in the BACS men's schola, by the way, are paid. (All schola members of course are competent musicians and are admitted only after an audition.) He does make a valid point, however. It is unfair to compare typical parishes to these exalted programs. What happens at St. Paul's/Cambridge during the summer, when the choir school is not in session, serves as a more realistic model.

It is unfair to compare typical parishes to these exalted programs. What happens at St. Paul's/Cambridge during the summer, when the choir school is not in session, serves as a more realistic model.

I agree...perhaps. The burning question is: "Why do our cathedrals not have programs along the line of Westminster Cathedral (in London)?" As I recall, that foundation was from Cardinal Vaughan at his requirement. We really need this in our dioceses: sung Mass every week, at least, and vespers on Sunday once (or more a month.) Latin is great, but it can be done in a dignified manner in English. If, as it should be, our cathedrals are the models for average parishes, this must happen before we can make large-scale progress. The faithful will see that this cult of worship has the approval of the ordinary, and so things will progress...at least where pastors are open to it!

Many of you have good and valid points. However, please keep in mind that my sole and only intention for starting this thread was that we ALL, regardless of our religious beliefs, backgrounds, likes and dislikes would hopefully be positively and proactively interested in an example of a musical ensemble that strives towards excellence in traditional sacred classical music, that inspires and offers glory to God.

Yes, I am personally proud to be an Anglo-Catholic (Anglican Use) member. Even though I was baptised, confirmed and communioned as a Roman Catholic, as a young boy I participated in both the Catholic Church for the Mass and communion and on Sunday mornings went to sing in an Episcopal Cathedral Men and Boys Choir because of the music - Traditional Sacred Catholic Music! Music to me has ALWAYS been the way I pray to God. It was SO obvious even to me as a child that something terribly wrong had occurred in the 1960's and even continues in my Catholic diocese to this day. When I went back home after years of excellent training, study and professional experience, a wise, scholarly and highly well educated and cultured Dominican Prior appointed me to a major position at "the" Dominican" church in my childhood diocese. After three years of extremely hard work and laying the foundations for building a wonderful traditional sacred classical music program with an adult choir, schola of men and a boys choir, along came a new pastor and literally over night it was all wiped away; all of it unappreciated and unwanted. Many of us like minded traditional classical sacred musicians even to this day are unemployed because of these kinds of treatments here in the USA; I still am! While, the geetar and drum set crowd smile all the way to their banks. I pray daily for God to remove the bitterness in my heart! In the meanwhile, I live in a Catholic diocese in California now which is just as bad as the one I grew up in, in Kentucky; and in some cases even worst!

I now live in poverty and barely survive from day to day, even though I have a vast musical knowledge and experience and am an expert in Boy Choirs, Scholas and traditional sacred classical music (chants and polyphony). I am easy to get along with, kind and generous and a good solid church musician and organist and most importantly a deeply loving soul of my Lord and Saviour Jesus. Yet, all to often, I can NOT get a job because I am a traditional, orthodox, conservative church musician. In the past when I have gotten one, along comes a new pastor who says I am not a "good match" and he destroys everything that many have work so hard to build. History repeats itself!

I am afraid that this will continue here in the USA until all priests are better educated and trained musically and an "absolute mandate" comes from the Church and Pope. The moral and ethical crimes which have been committed on me in several churches will continue in this country unless we ALL unite, stand together and demand the CHURCH live up to their profession of dignity for all. NO ONE should ever go through what I have been through and yet I hear and read it almost everyday.

In the meanwhile, I try to help other fellow believers of the Faith, those who like-wise find the great traditional sacred music of the Church "their" way to pray as well. The music of St. Thomas NYC inspires and moves me every Sunday over the web, to tears and a deeper love for my Lord. I find myself sitting here and thinking, "if only more Catholic Churches were like this musicially." I have hope because of what goes on in the UK at Westminster Cathedral and many of the Oratories. I like to watch the Mass from the Vatican but yet pray for the Sistine Chapel Choir. And I am so wonderfully enheartened in what I read and hear about and from the CMAA!

Please, let us worship the Lord in the "beauty of holiness" through such music offered by such choirs; regardless of who they are or where they reside. Let us learn, go forth and do likewise - ALL for the Glory of God!

I have never heard St. Thomas described as a "liberal" church. Some of the theological stands that the rector has taken (particularly in the sphere of human sexuality) have aroused considerable ire among clergy who would still account themselves as conservative.

If you will visit the Web site of St. Clement's, Philiadelphia, and read the rector's Blog, you will find that his positions are considerably more "liberal" than Andrew Mead's.

I do not like the liturgy at St. Thomas. Even though I like Tudor English, I do not like "Rite I," which retains a lot of Reformation baggage that the contemporary-English "Rite II" has discarded. Besides retaining Rite I, St. Thomas has retained a number of silly practices introduced to Anglican churches during the Victorian era, such as the choir's parading through the church singing a hymn before nearly every service and the singing of "Old Hundredth" when the alms are received--not only at Mass but at Evensong. At the Mass/"Choral Eucharist" the choir usually sings all parts of a composed ordinary except the creed--which is recited. As far as I know, the propers are not sung.

Although I do not like the liturgy at St. Clement's, I think it has far more integrity than the liturgy at St. Thomas. At St. Clement's the old Roman rite is used with only one Anglican addition--Cranmer's "General Confession--which is placed before the offertory. St. Clement's deviates from Tridentine usage in only two ways: All the prayers and readings are rendered in English, and the Roman Canon is recited audibly.

St. Thomas choir is probably the best in North America. The quality of the singing certainly justifies an occasional visit to the church, liturgical pecadillos notwithstanding.

Just this week a colleague stopped me in the parking lot to tell me about a Tuesday choral evensong she attended at St Thomas, and how beautiful the singing was. "It reminded of the High Masses we had back in the 50s," she said. (The music and atmosphere, I think she meant--she knows evensong isn't Mass)

Evangelical beauty, as Fr McAfee said in his pilgrimage homily.

Regardless of your religious / denominational background, the main issue is that I offered this thread in the hope that many would LISTEN TO this Men and Boys Choir on their website and come to appreciate the extremely fine traditional sacred classical music and the remarkably high level of performance by one of THE greatest choral ensemble of the world. Many Catholic church choirs and their directors would benefit enormously from listening and studying their artistry in chant and polyphony. Yes, they are a professional choir and a choir school. But that shouldn't stop anyone from listening, observing and learning. Yes, there are other choirs that are magnificent too. However, this choir of men and boys is extremely unique and its new director is outstanding in his musicianship and artistry.

There should be MANY MORE men and boy choirs in Catholic churches here in the USA and many of the current choirs and music programs would do well to strive toward this model of musical and artistic beauty and excellence! Just imagine setting in church with this kind of choir on one side and a rock and roll folk group on the other side. The sheer beauty and greatness of one would shame the other and make blatantly obvious the profane from the sacred!