As I have said before, I have only heard BFOR once per year, at most, at school May crownings. I had to go online to get a copy for the program, since it is not in any hymnals I own. I won't lose any sleep over it either way. I just hope this hymnal is not so stilted that many will never use it. I don't like "Amazing Grace," either, but program it about 4 times a year for the influential folks in the parish who do. They get "Amazing Grace" occasionally, and I get to do better music the rest of the time. As trade-offs go, that's not bad.

I don't really have much thing to say about hymns, non-liturgical hymns. (Too many different ideas, opinions and preferenceses. Maybe this is why the hymns are not part of the Mass.) But I do hope this hymnal project will help many parishes, not just by setting a stepping stone to free hymns, but also for parishes to work towards sacred music with higher standard both in music and texts that truly lift our spirit with their beauty.

There used to be a poetry collection called something like "Heart Songs". Some magazine (Reader's Digest maybe?) called for nominations, ran a poll from that, and printed up the top 200 or so. I think they did the same thing for songs, and another one for hymns. It was a very mixed bag, but it was a good measure of songs people liked. But that's not the way you normally run a hymnbook, is it? Hymnbooks are for use, not for popularity contests. I don't think it's killing anybody to say, "Look, let's set these aside for another day", or "You can make your own hymnal, or print these up for yourself." It's public domain.

If it's a song that's only sung once a year at May Crowning, would it actually make sense to have it in the all-year hymnbook, taking up space? Or wouldn't it be smarter to make up copy sheets of your May Crowning Marian pieces? I mean, sheesh, are you really planning to have the kids haul the hymnbooks outside church? (If it rains? If it's muddy? Who does that? Whose pastors would let them?)

The beauty of public domain is that it's not dependent on publishing companies, even on CMAA. It is infinitely customizable.

If it actually would freak out more people by leaving it out than by putting it in, sure, put it in. But I've only heard the song sung once in my entire life, and I don't think it was ever a fixture in this neck of the woods. (My fore-Catholics apparently sung the Lambillotte song instead, "On This Day, O Beautiful Mother", which I was apparently programmed before birth to think is very pretty and harmonizable and nice. Since I heard it for the first time just a few years back.)

I don't think I'm helping the editors much with my comments for the hymn threads, frankly. But there's never going to be a super-perfect hymnal which will only include stuff everybody loves and finds beautiful, and which doesn't include anything that anybody finds lame. I think the editors should take suggestions seriously for adding songs, not take suggestions too seriously for subtracting songs, and ultimately just sit down with the batch of songs they've got and figure out a good mix of styles, tempos, and theological concepts (as if putting together a really long album or set list). Everything else gets saved for Volume II. :)

From Kathy: "The hymnal is going to have 250 hymns, right? "

Is that all JT? Really? The Hymnal 1940 has 600, not counting Psalms, Canticles, or Communion Settings, much less the late supplement that added another 75 or so. Even Worship II has 300. I doubt that 250 would even cover actual Office Hymns. And, before they were axed, there were over 5,000 Sequences - and they were "hymns" within the Mass!

Just 250? Is all we can come up with.

I don't know the final number but I feel no strong desire to create hymn mania. I mean, in our own parish, we have perhaps 20 hymns in the missalette that are usable. We get by just fine.

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Office hymns, sequences and other hymns that are parts of Mass we sang at Mass are liturgical, because our Church adopted as Her official liturgical hymns. Litrugical prayers are not the same as private prayers and prayers for common. I think all the hymns, or at least most of the hymns we discuss here are remained as hymns by individuals yet, their private prayers, so the disagreement goes on and on. And most local parishes would be using them in Mass.

Also about the tunes, I see the different styles of entertainment music try to influence the sacred music throughout the history, and our Holy Church tried to safegaurd sacred music from them. The pop style we have now wasn't there back then, but something else. And it might not be there when our next generation have to deal with promoting sacred music. Does that make the style of praise band and Haas' acceptable in the next generation? If not, why? Is there something else we need to consider for sacred music to be truly sacred?

Note: My previous inflammatory comment was removed because I totally support the work of CMAA and its effort to assemble an excellent hymnal and do not wish to cast a shadow on the work. However, this does not change my opinion on which hymns are fitting for the project. Thank you.

I'm also totally behind whatever we get.

I haven't been trying to be inflammatory. I'm sorry if I'm being too airy about this stuff we've been discussing. I'm used to using a hymnal that has about 5 or 10 Marian songs if you're lucky, and I guarantee none of them was any of the ones we've discussed! :) I first heard "Panis Angelicus" in 1990 on that TV show Nothing Sacred, in the most liturgically abusive TV setting one could imagine. My personal idea of the olden, olden days is Missalettes from 1974, which is about as far back as I can remember. So honestly, I have only the vaguest idea what's dear to people from before then, and that mostly garnered from a spate of reading Fr. Greeley's novels. If I step on anyone's toes, it's not on purpose. Really.

The podcasts on kencanedo.com are *very* instructive about what went on in the 1960s: a true service, especially for us who missed the events of the time due to our youth or our non-Catholic background.

If you haven't seen Jeffrey's review of Mr. Canedo's new book, I recommend that as well.

(The podcasts were very slow at downloading when I picked them up yesterday, so you might have to download them during off-hours.)

I did not think that Francis' deleted statements were at all inflammatory. They were, actually, rather spot on. We should all be thankful that we, who share at least basic concepts of the mass and its music, have this forum in which we may state our thoughts without censure and without reference to those who are happy with Ed Sullivan Show masses and would rudely and screechily oppose as a matter of principle all that we are working to achieve. Jeffrey is right: we should not at all 'want to dampen the sense of freedom and honesty' here. Each of us should temper his own thoughts lest they be couched in an unkind or unseemly manner while enjoying, within reason, freedom of expression. This forum is an unique outlet and a crucible of creativity. Its discourse should be free and in keeping with the high purposes that we all serve.

Donna - One doesn't have to be Catholic to perceive the qualitative difference between the Sistine Chapel ceiling and the maudlin efforts of plaster filled churches; or to apprehend the spiritual chasm between Veni Sancte Spiritus (or Regina Caeli) and the vacuous song under discussion here. It would seem that you have sufficient spiritual and artistic (if not dogmatic) kinship to weigh in. While I am spiritually, theologically, intellectually, in mind, body, and soul a convinced Roman Catholic, my Anglo-Catholic heritage leaves me at great (often painful) odds with much in Catholic culture with which I am surrounded. It is one of the reasons that I am a friend of this forum, and one of the reasons that I may be an occasional irritant to some of my fellow forum members. You are welcome here as a friend of the best in music and art in the service of that unique and potent wedding between heaven and earth that is the Mass.

Well, thank you Mr Z and Mr Jackson. After years and years in Church music in all kinds of situations and denominations, I think the fine art of compromise is essential. Will it keep us out heaven if we occasionally let the congregation sing 'Amazing Grace, or put BFOTF in a hymnal? I think not.
Will I get fired if I schedule all Latin Propers at 7:30 AM Mass? Yep! :) I do what I can to uphold good music and meaningful Liturgy at the place where I am now. So far it seems to be working, as I am starting my 19th year here.

Donna

"CommentAuthorchonak CommentTime4 hours ago edited
The podcasts on kencanedo.com are *very* instructive about what went on in the 1960s: a true service, especially for us who missed the events of the time due to our youth or our non-Catholic background."

Chonak, I have always heard that if you remember the 60s, you weren't really there. Unfortunately, I am allergic to fully half the legal drugs on the market, and probably more that are not legal. Consequently, I remember everything. During my teens, a whacked-out bunch of nuns decided to leave their convent and live in the world where they could be more effective. One Sunday morning, they showed up, guitars in hand, with copies of "Michael Rowed the Boat Ashore." I have maintained since then, that upon seeing a nun with a guitar, one should shoot first and then ask questions.

Hey, remember those Singing Nuns from Philly? For the life of me I can't remember the name of the book of songs- I can remember singing them, though

Joy is like the rain? Was that it?

Donna

Joy Is Like the Rain was the Communion meditation at least once a month, in my childhood.

Another standard went

In the still of the morning, we awake with the dawn.
We greet our day in the challenge of faith, but what will we have to lead us on?

We'll just say that we've been to the mountain
And caught a glimpse of all that we could be
We will know that a new day is dawning
With a morning sun for all of us to see....

Blather.

Maybe the biggest difference between then and now is that then, they were relatively innocent. No one new that what they were doing was completely temporary and disposable.

Well, I had the first miniskirt in the small town where we were stationed at the time. And I have saved all my 60's and 70's clothes, Charles. I regularly outfit my friends for Mardi Gras parties. And last year, I dressed most everyone for a Dancing Queen Routine for the entertainment.! HAHA!!

Donna

In my mind, the "rarest" flowers we can bring to Mary are the vestiges of her Roman Rite and the purity found only in authentic sacred music. And boy, are they rare!