PBEH Discussion: Amazing Grace
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,513
    Thoughts?
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    That sound you heard was my head exploding from the thought of another useless echo-chamber discussion of how horrible this one is. I'm not going to even bother defending it since it's now a dogma among more-orthodox-than-thou Catholic musicians that anyone who likes it will burn in a special level of Hell. I'll just keep up my motto on this one (even though that will get just as much consideration):

    If you don't like it, don't sing it.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,513
    Gavin, your motto makes a lot of sense when a hymnal is given to you as a done deal. This hymnal is being made. There is a rare opportunity to make a hymnal that is ALL GOOD.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Too much baggage with me on this one. I don't care if I ever hear it again. Should it be in a hymnal? Probably.
  • Chrism
    Posts: 873
    This one I'd love to have at my own Requiem Mass. I know it would probably have to be in Latin.

    Should it be in a PD hymnal? Sure. But its inclusion will make many Catholics upset and suspicious of the other hymns in the book. I remember an interview with the Adoremus Society on EWTN where one of the selling points of their hymnal was the exclusion of AG. Could a warning label of some sort be attached to the hymn? Could it be included on a list of "hymns of Protestant origin"? Not so much to warn, but to reassure those who think it should have a warning label, that the other hymns in the book are of a different character.
    Thanked by 1PurpleSquirrel
  • RobertRobert
    Posts: 343
    Sung as originally intended in The Sacred Harp, NEW BRITAIN is amazing indeed:

    youtube video
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  • Donnaswan
    Posts: 585
    I think the real problem with this hymn is its OVERUSE. I have heard this hymn a zillion times since I began working in a Catholic cathedral. We rarely used it in any Episcopal church I ever worked in or worshipped at. I can tell you at my present Episcopal 'home', it is NEVER used at funerals., but almost always requested at my 'workplace' We try to steer clear of it, but rarely possible. And I really used to like it. (My Baptist forebears)
    Those bagpipes have a lot to answer for. That's when it really started on the downhill slope, I think. Now I have to be honest and tell you I have two versions in the choir library- one by John Rutter , which the choir loves, and another with a Gospel accompaniment, which is probably nearer the mark in the origins of the hymn, but we haven't used it in years and years.

    Donna
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,022
    Don't blame the bagpipers too much for this one! As a matter of fact, most pipers would rather forget it - they're really sick of it. People even ask for it at the weddings! It does, however, smooth over the harshness to have organ accompaniment added.

    The wonderful point of relegating AG to the bagpipes is precisely the lack of text! Just listen to the melody, if you like it. Try not to think of any of the text!
  • Rebecca Bridget C-
    Posts: 79
    Have you ever heard it sung to "Jewett"? That can be fun. Here is the only free recording of it I can find online, which has a organ in the background which sounds like an accordion (laugh!). A shape-note score is available here, if you download the plugin.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,848
    If we eliminate this hymn, we will have Amazing Space!
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,022
    That's because it's a reed organ - free-reeds like and accordion, but playing under vacuum rather than pressure.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    That youtube is great. I've never liked it before now.
  • Donnaswan
    Posts: 585
    Steve You may have a point about those bagpipes. We were living in England when that craze began, and it always made me think of all those Brit movies where the army is marching into battle with the pipes going before them. But come to think of it, aren't they usually playing Irish tunes? LOL

    Donna
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,220
    If any hymn is to be faulted as contrary to the Catholic ethos due to an excessive emphasis on individualistic piety, it's this one.

    Also, as Donnaswan rightly notes, it's been done to death. How this song went from being a symbol of Methodism to being in constant demand at Catholic funerals is not really clear to me yet. I suppose there's an answer somewhere in the idea that generic religiosity in America is Protestant.

    (Incidentally, here's a local chorus singing an arrangement based on the shape-note tradition cited above.)
  • JennyJenny
    Posts: 147
    Too much baggage. Leave it out. Thems that want it can find it plenty other places.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    RBC: "That can be fun."

    Even more fun is to sing the AG text to the hymn tune ANTIOCH.
  • priorstf
    Posts: 460
    This hymn rates up there with Shall We Gather By The River as the epitome of well-known Protestant hymns. Considering that for the past 2 years there has been so much written here against using the hymn sandwich I'm somewhat surprised that it made the first cut.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,513
    It's widely available in standard arrangements in the public domain.
  • Rebecca Bridget C-
    Posts: 79
    Eft: Hilarious. The best bit is imagining that echo line basses love to throw in for "heaven and nature sing (and heaven, and heaven!)" with the words "was blind, was blind!"

    And thanks, Steve, for bringing reed organs to my attention! Now that you mention it, that does ring a bell. (ba dum chhh!)
  • mjballoumjballou
    Posts: 994
    I don't think you need to put it in the hymnal. People down here know it all by heart. Descended as I am from a long line of Southern freewill Baptists, Methodists, Christian Scientists, and anything else you could find to join, I probably have the song encoded in my DNA.

    At the same time, I'm tired of it, think it's a poor choice at funerals, and would suggest that people sing it at the wake or driving home from the cemetary. And Chrism is right, it seems to be a "third rail" for some folks.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    MJ, can it be sung to the tune INTERNATIONALE?
  • Donnaswan
    Posts: 585
    yeah, I can sing every verse by heart. And I just came in from walking the dog in the college woods, and WHAT DO I HEAR??? BAGPIPES!!!! :)

    Donna
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,199
    Better yet, sing it to the tune from Gilligan's Island. Learned that at Boy Scout Camp. Works like a charm.
  • Joseph Michael
    Posts: 258
    John Newton never heard the tune NEW BRITAIN. He probably sung it to ST FLAVIAN.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    It also works to sing it to the tune of Ghost Riders in the Sky.

    I think this hymn represents a Calvinist idea of grace, not a Catholic one. It may even be a bit heretical. I have never understood this hymn's popularity, although I usually end up having to use it 3 or 4 times a year. Certainly, it's over-used. Why include it in a Catholic hymnal?

    As for the bagpipes, the only difference between an onion and a bagpipe, is that no one cries when you slice a bagpipe.
  • Maureen
    Posts: 679
    I believe that the hymn's popularity with Catholics stems from its use during the civil rights movement.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,424
    How passing strange it is that this song is the subject of serious discussion on this forum - and, yet, contemplated for inclusion in what might become the word's only hymnal to have NO dross in it! As for bagpipes? Thrill that they are to hear, not even they can redeem such as this. Like as with the onion, one is moved to tears of grief at their mis-use.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Osborn, please, let's lighten up a bit. People are far too hysterical. We are trying to liberate all hymns, and pick only the best once we are clear what is available.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    Hey, I have Scottish ancestors on both sides of my mother's family. I still can't stand bagpipes!
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,022
    My oldest son is a profession, Grade 1, bagpiper. I will certainly admit that a bad bagpiper is supremely awful to listen to. But you really need to hear a good one. And with the pipe organ, it's an even better sound!

    We are considering doing some MP3 files of his best pieces, and a few with me accompanying him. I'll post a link when we get around to it.
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    You asked for thoughts...
    I'm surprised that no one has brought up how this melody is so singularly awkward, that its probably best left to professional singers if you want the leaps handled well. Not to sound elitist, but if singability is a concern- and I think it should be- the tune alone would rule this one out.

    Just my 2 cents.
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    Ok, 2 more cents.

    1- I am THRILLED that this project is underway, and have honestly been praying that CMAA would do something like this. YEAH!

    2- These discussions make me want to run out and get a degree in theology to fill in my gaps. Kathy in particular amazes me with her contributions. (She'll kill me for writing this, but I'm thinking Kathy's got five marriage proposals a day with all she's got going for her. Honestly, guys!!!)
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,513
    Hahahaha!

    I can just see the email. "Hi, Mom, I just met the greatest girl! Last night after polyphony I took her out to dinner and we talked about Charles Wesley THE WHOLE TIME! Her knowledge base is incredible! Then we went to a historic church in the city and I quietly improvised on DOWN AMPNEY for at least an hour. It was really a magical evening."
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 783
    but...people sing it. I'll play for a funeral with a bunch of (pagans who rarely darken the doors of the church...) and they probably don't sing or say a word the whole Mass...but...when I play it for the recessional...everybody belts it out! I mean, I know that just cause everyone sings a song doesn't mean it should necessarily be included...but there are times when it is *pastorally* helpful to include at least one song that people can sing (cuz they dont know all the other ones...)

    Imagine that you, for whatever reason, never go to church, and then Grandma dies, and you have to go to her Catholic funeral, and they do a bunch of boring old songs and you and the rest of your family don't know them and don't know any of the responses, so you're just ready to leave and are thinking, "ok, glad we got this boring funeral over with..." but at the same time you are *emotionally vulnerable* due to the loss of Grandma...so, hearing at the end and being able to sing "Amazing Grace" cuz you love it and know it (from the one or two funerals you attend a year,) just MIGHT be the difference in the beginning of a possible conversion, as people are always more spiritually open during times of loss...otherwise you'd just leave after suffering through a foreign funeral where you didn't understand anything else but instead at the end got to feel "part of it."
    (how's that for a run-on sentence...)

    yes, of course Amazing Grace is not up to extremely perfect standards...but I do disagree with some of the above in that it IS singable-why else do congregations belt it out? There's not even any tricky rhythms! (think eagles wings...) but, I personally believe it should be included because (I know that this card I'm about to pull has been waaaay abused in the past,) there can be some good, pastoral, charitable reasons to use it once in a while.

    (and ps, did anyone else see that recent movie about the guy who wrote this song?)
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    I'd rather have non-Catholics walk away thinking, "That was different." than "Well, at least they sang one song we know."

    Funerals and weddings are such a great time for evangelizing the faith. When standards are lowered...or not even put in place, then what is presented at that one Mass does not offer a glimpse into the beauty of music that the church offers.

    Churches that fail to present a program for the funeral that explains exactly what is going on are not evangelizing, they are ignoring the chance to do so. Someday someone here should create a printout sheet that cna be customized just for this purpose...in the NO and EF as well.
  • Donnaswan
    Posts: 585
    If we have to have a shape note hymntune for funerals, how about Jerusalem my happy home sung to Land of Rest.

    Donna
  • gregpgregp
    Posts: 632
    Right about evangelizing, FNJ, and not just at funerals. If people walk away from Mass thinking, "That was what we do at my church", then they see no difference. There was a great quotation in Newsweek about 15 years ago, when they were writing about the rise of the Evangelical churches, and the said something like, "Once you have bought into the idea that churches, like brands of gasoline, are alike, then you will naturally turn to the one with the highest octane." If we try to emphasize all the ways in which we're just like the other guys down the street, then there is no reason for them to stay.
    Thanked by 1Jeffrey Quick
  • francis
    Posts: 10,848
    Amen to gregp. I laud you!

    I love that phrase in Star Wars when they are attacking the death star: "Stay on target. Stay on target."

    Catholic furniture should ONLY be in the Catholic Church, and ONLY Catholic furniture! Our theology is distinct and everything else should reflect that. Compromise should never be a word in the vocabulary. My vote is simply this: No Non-Catholic Hymns. Question is, are we talking Catholic tunes and text or just text?

    After all, isn't that what the PBC represents? The PBEH should be the hymn counterpart of the same series. If you include the protestant hymns in this hymnal then it will be just like all the other hymnals.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    well, yes but ummm, if we exclude protestant hymns, you end up with the PBC - okay, that's an exaggeration but not much. There is no normative Catholic tradition of vernacular liturgical hymnody of the sense we are talking about here. So let's just deal with this reality and move forward.
  • Maureen
    Posts: 679
    There is problematic theology in the song, depending on how you interpret it. That's the real reason to leave it out.

    I'm a bit puzzled that anybody thinks the tune awkward or difficult, though. It's pretty bog-standard range for American or British Isles folk music, which is to say that people who can't sing can sing it. If people are playing it in weird keys, that's not the tune's fault.

    And of course, a lot of people insist on arranging folk tunes in some unnatural dumbed-down way that makes them harder to sing. (The hatred some hymnbook arrangers have toward Scottish triplets, for example. I mean, what's the major characteristic of Scottish folk music, if not triplets? And in general, people should be shot for how they've box-ized good old tunes like Waly, Waly. But I digress.)
  • Donnaswan
    Posts: 585
    Does this mean we can't use Bach chorales, since some of the tunes were secular in origin, and he wrote for the Lutherans? How far back do we have to go before a folk tune or barroom ditty can cease to be associated with anything except a hymn? What about some of the great Vaughan Williams tunes? Getting a little nitpicky here. :)
    Donna
  • G
    Posts: 1,401
    I mean, what's the major characteristic of Scottish folk music, if not triplets?

    The snap?
    But yeah, when I first encountered Amazing Grace in a Catholic church I kept trying to put triplets in, but didn't know why -- I take it the traditional tune has them?
    In some cases I suspect triplets were lost to a fast tempo.
    they've box-ized good old tunes like Waly, Waly.

    I only know this tune from artsy choral arrangements and from hymnals. How does its "real" form differ from what I've seen?

    OT, are you particularly knowledgeable about folk tunes? Can you point me to any web sites with PDFs of authentic tune? (big yoof project...)

    Save the Liturgy, Save the World
  • francis
    Posts: 10,848
    Well, then, in my thinking the only thing that makes this project 'Catholic' is the fact that Catholics published it, not the content, tunes or text although some may be included. Are we including the standard hymn repertoire of the Catholic Church (ie. as found in the PBC?).
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,116
    I think omitting it might be a tad precious.

    I understand the concerns about the possible equivocal meaning of the text, but the possibility of equivocation is something found it many beloved hymn texts (especially in translation). The text is, however, solidly founded in the profound (and very fruitful) repentance of a former slaver (from the middle of the century when English-speakers dominated and "perfected" the Atlantic slave trade (thanks to the Treaty of Utrecht)), who became an Anglican priest and agitator for abolition of the slave trade.

    This context has made the text canonical. It later acquired popularity in English North America in the evangelisation of the Second Great Awakening and later revivals, but the original pearl remains undiminished by other associations.

    One way to avoid sentimentality is to use the original New Britain harmonization: rugged, remorseful, grateful. If we have no place for music whatsoever such as this in our Catholic liturgical and devotional singing, we are impoverished indeed.

    Starting with William Billings, there is a wealth of wonderful hymn tunes (and even some texts) in American home-grown hymnody that Catholics should not overlook.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    Let's ban everything that is Pentatonic and just move on.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,513
    No, by all means throw in everything.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    Never mind..
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,513
    No, you're fine, I'm sorry.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    If you leave all that out, you will have a hymnal that can not be used in most places. If you throw everything in, you will have "Gather Reprehensive." Sounds like a no-win situation. Surely, it is possible to put together a hymnal with decent texts and melodies, without the trash from the "Big 3" we all love to hate.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    yes, possible and in process.
  • Chrism
    Posts: 873
    There is no normative Catholic tradition of vernacular liturgical hymnody


    Well, there's something out there, and "Immaculate Mary" is part of it.

    The problem is it is not codified, not based in positive law, but wholly organic.
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