Recordings of pre-Gregorian chant ?
  • probe
    Posts: 62
    I've just started in this area, as a choir singer with no instrumental training, and can see that there is a huge archive of discussions in this forum.

    I'm preparing to give a talk on Gregorian chant to our local Catholic parish in Co. Wexford, Ireland, on 5 Sept, in response to the parish priest expressing an interest in reviving Gregorian chant. For the Gregorian examples, I'll use CCWatershed and the "Let's sing with Pope Leo" tutorials from the Pontificial Institute of Sacred Music. We'll probably start with the Ordinary of Mass VIII and see how we get on.

    I am looking for short sound samples of earlier plainchant just for brief comparative illustration. Straight tone singing, possibly represented now by Orthodox or Anglican chant? There's lots of English language chant sources in the US and harmonised settings, but my googling has not been sufficiently refined to find examples of what pre-Gregorian chant might have sounded like.

    Thank you,
    Patrick
  • Anglican Chant isn’t straight tone chant.

    What do you mean by earlier chant? I can take my
    Liber and sing the chant propers, responses to Mass examples online that predate the reforms of the Council of Trent.
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,193
    The problem is that "pre-Gregorian" is also "pre-notational".
    There are some recordings of what little Greek and Roman music there is, but interpretation is extremely conjectural

    There's an interesting recording from about 20 years ago, "Chant Wars", which explores Gallican vs. Old Roman chant. Spotify here, for a listen. Ensemble Organum and Capella Romana may also have some relevant material.

    That said, I question your premise. Chant is the living music of the Church, with an established performance practice (Solesmes). You don't want to give the impression that it's a museum piece.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,212
    There are some recordings of what little Greek and Roman music there is, but interpretation is extremely conjectural


    At best. There is a guy on social media who does, afaict, know a lot about languages and linguistics including Sanskrit, ancient (pre-Attic even) Greek, and Latin, but since part of his schtick is owning Christians (he won’t put it in so many words, but that’s a part of it) his recitations of Homer sound Indian. Which is fine, but is it authentic? Well…

    And the same applies for Marcel Pères, who tries to stake out historical practice in part, or at least people think that he does this, only to do the exact same thing for chant of the later Middle Ages and of the court of Versailles as he does for the earliest chants. (I love Jordi Savall too, but I have the same question: how can you do each part of such a wide repertoire equally well and authentically?)

    Jeffrey, I like your point about performance practice. :)

    The other thing about Orthodox chant is that the Russians were highly influenced by the Latin West, so they use more metrical tunes even for solo cantors in much of the Slavic tradition (this is the norm for Byzantine Catholics in North America where the Ruthenian teal book is normative).
  • There were western chant traditions that predated the Gregorian one, like Ambrosian, Gallican, and Old Roman. Of these, if I'm not much mistaken, the Ambrosian was the best preserved, as the Gallican and Old Roman traditions were sort of fused and replaced by the Gregorian while the Ambrosian more or less locally persevered. So one avenue for you might be to look into the oldest Ambrosian chants and compare them with Gregorian ones, perhaps even of the same text.

    You're not going to get recordings of straight-up authentic historical performance, because nobody is certain exactly how this music, Ambrosian or Gregorian, sounded 1000+ years ago (and it's safe to say there was not one single, precise "correct" way of singing it throughout all those times and places).
  • probe
    Posts: 62
    Thanks all for the detail, and especially for the Chant Wars link on Spotify. I had the idea that singing the whole line on one tone, with maybe an incipit and final, preceded the melodies of GC. If it's not possible, that's fine, makes it easier for me and less distraction for the listeners perhaps.
  • I think I understand a little better now. Yes, as far as I know, modal psalmody (with intonation, reciting tone, and termination as you say) did precede the composition of more musically complex antiphons and such, and was a tradition carried on from Temple worship (among others). In passing, the Ambrosian Credo I'm familiar with is very recitative in this way.

    So for purposes of illustration you might present a Gregorian and/or Ambrosian psalm tone or two as a very rough approximation of what much of the chant may have sounded like in the early-Early Church. They probably began composing/repurposing chant-like hymns immediately though.

    You would want to add caveats. In the early centuries the psalmist might, when possible, have elaborated extemporaneously on the psalm tones ("performance practice"). And while we have the Gregorian and Ambrosian tones (and some of the Ambrosian ones may be earlier) we don't have the psalm tones of the Early Church (which may not even have come from the diatonic genus in all cases), or don't know that we do. So it would just be a very general idea of chant in the Early Church.

    Very open to any corrections from others. Generally the history here is complex and opaque, so you're going to be both speculating and oversimplifying when you tell a neat story of its coming-to-be.
    Thanked by 1probe
  • Tracks 11–14 of this album give Beneventan, Old Roman, Ambrosian and Gregorian versions of the same offertory. It's an excellent introduction to the OR sound. Track 12 is how Dr. Dyer started his wonderful seminar on OR chant (or should I say the OG chant?) at the CISM this summer.
    Thanked by 1Chant_Supremacist
  • FSSPmusic
    Posts: 426
    That said, I question your premise. Chant is the living music of the Church, with an established performance practice (Solesmes). You don't want to give the impression that it's a museum piece.
    Jeffrey, I like your point about performance practice. :)
    But what does it even mean? Are there no non-Solesmes performance practices that are "established" for Gregorian chant? Accentualists, semiologists, mensuralists, and equalists would disagree with your assessment. Is the chanting of the Sistine Choir, which doesn't follow the Solesmes method for Papal Masses, somehow non-representative of the living music of the Church? No, I think the situation is quite the opposite. The ones who most give the impression of chant as a museum piece are the ones clinging the most tenaciously to outdated scholarship, frozen since the late 1950s, usually under the pretext of aesthetic preference masquerading as obedience, authenticity, and/or purity. Like it or not, the last ecumenical council called for renewed scholarship, a return to the sources, and a more critical edition of the chant books published since St. Pius X. How many are taking the call seriously and doing their part?
  • francis
    Posts: 11,175
    Yeah, I don’t think there’s one way to interpret chant notation. In fact, if you put all of us in a room, I bet you would have as many different versions of the chant as you had people in the room.
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,193
    Performance practice flows from a musical text. Even in performance practices where the text is not sacrosanct, the text is still the most important evidence of what actually went on. The approved musical chant text of the Church is a Solesmes text, though without the Solesmes rhythmic signs. The Church wisely does not dictate how this text is to be interpreted. But 99% of people singing chant in the liturgy are doing so from a fully-Solesmes text (LU/LB or similar digital editions) and are singing more-or-less in that tradition, even if it's often "Folk Solesmes".

    I am in favor of scholarship, in general. But the job of the Church is not scholarship; it's the worship of Almighty God. If the Church were to decide that scholarship suited that end, that would be great. But the Church has not cared about chant in that way since 1964; indeed, it would rather that it disappeared or be left to the musicologists. Looking through issues of the Caecilia ca. 1960, one sees passionate discussion of minutiae, as the meteor bore down on the Vatican. I'm not saying there's no value in pursuing a platonic ideal of any given chant. But it's more important that chant be sung everywhere by all, in the received tradition (young as it may be).
    Thanked by 3MatthewRoth tomjaw IanW
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,212
    Patrick, I know how you feel, but even so, I think that it’s obvious that chant doesn’t live in amber, nor is it something that academics can or should constantly fiddle with — doubly so when the musicologists don’t actually seem to believe or wish to see chant used regularly in divine worship.

    But anyway, acknowledging the dominance in much of the church of Solesmes as the living performance practice and not an attempt (not anymore at least) of ressourcement is, well, what academics have howled for Solesmes folks to do…

    I don’t have time to worry about whether my chanting is perceived as a museum piece because I’m actually chanting. I know that you are too, but like…we’re also lucky enough to use the preconciliar books daily. (Does that not stand and fall with the council?) And I profess the Credo without my fingers crossed; Anthony Ruff once made the point about the cathedrals and major conservatories doing some form of semiology (anything from Cardine to proportionalism to something in between), and a) I wasn’t impressed because getting chant is still like pulling hen’s teeth even in France, with the Solesmes shadow being cast and b) the state of the church in Germany being what it is, I am not inclined to follow their lead. I don’t know why he didn’t consider that moral example matters (and without putting them on a pedestal, at least the Solesmes congregation takes ora et labora seriously…)

    And as far as aesthetic preference goes: I don’t think that any of us would want our choirs to sound like the Italians singing for Masses at the Vatican Basilica regardless of how we chant. (It sucks, to put it mildly.

    But also I have thought that no, the academics have not really made a tradition of performance practice, and not just because people cling to Solesmes. It’s not something easily replicable elsewhere. (The Saint Ann Choir style is a good example of this!)
  • FSSPmusic
    Posts: 426
    I know I'm responding to a couple of people simultaneously, but speaking as one who is neither an academic nor a musicologist, I don't consider singing from the oldest sources to be fiddling, tinkering, tampering, or whatever other derogatory terminology one may wish to use, nor do I think of it as the pursuit of a platonic ideal. First and foremost, it is the proclamation of a sacred text handed down from the Fathers of the Church, as handed down by them. The official edition was a rushed project, with an estimated 50 years' worth of work compressed into five, and the Holy See acknowledged as early as 1906 (!) that changes to it would be needed in the future. There are some chants that should be known and sung everywhere by all, but I don't think that's the Church's desire for most of the chant repertory, which is more in the domain of trained singers and clergy or religious with a canonical obligation to chant the Divine Office. I see absolutely no reason why it should be considered desirable for every Catholic everywhere to sing graduals and offertories according to the Solesmes method, which you call "the received tradition."

    I need to preface what I'm about to write by saying that I intend absolutely no disrespect toward the great Dom Gueranger, and I don't mean to derail this thread, but my impression from what I've read of his biography is that he and his founding confreres were secular priests who learned monasticism from books, not through a living tradition, which didn't exist in France. Is this an accurate assessment or not? If so, the whole Solesmes enterprise has to be viewed as a sort of educated reconstruction (I'll leave it to others to debate how educated reconstruction differs from academic fiddling) rather than tradition. As for the chant, the Solesmes method is neither traditional, nor Tridentine, nor an organic development, nor can it honestly be viewed through the lens of a hermeneutic of continuity, yet certain communities within the Church (and some without!) act as though the cantors were counting nuanced groups of twos and threes—and deliberately assigning arsis or thesis to each group—in pre-Revolutionary France, which is ludicrous.