And it with perfectly compliment the PBC? with no overlap? And only 10 dollars? I'd probably buy several copies. Sounds perfect for dinner parties!

Yes on this minuses. The intro would have to make clear that hymns are not normative. And yet, they aren't going away. We all need them at at least one Mass. The other point is that you can still have hymns WITHOUT replacing propers.

Is there any chance you can add Gregorian chants in that book? I don't know how many parishes can afford to have two hard converd music books in each pew. If they can afford only one, which one would be?

Right but there are a few very low priced readings/propers only things out there. Look at this for $2.25 each for an entire year of readings/propers/Psalms.

Sorry, Jeffrey, I believe such an endeavor would be counter-productive to the essential mission of CMAA on more than one level. You can do the math on why I think so.

Was that to me, JT?

Send cell to scurradei at sbcglobal dot net

It appears that these annual books usually go for $1.90 each.

Are 250 hymns enough?

What would be the rational for including particular hymns?

The rational would be difficult of course but time tested, the ones we all pull down year after year, with a good sampling for all main liturgical needs. Remember that no Latin need be in here at all. No service music either. No patriotism etc. No, it would not meet every need. The main thing is to make a clear statement that these hymns, all excellent, with solid harmonies and sound texts, are part of the commons and can be done by anyone without licenses, restrictions, etc.. It could be the best hymnal made in many a decade. And yes some new material too, and over the next months we would need to do a solicitation of these.

My main concern are the hymns that one senses that one cannot do without but are under copyright. "Come Down Oh Love Divine," for example. We would need to approach rights owners to see about putting them into the commons. It could happen.

Would this at all be similar to what Noel is doing, or has already done, with his Catholic hymns project?

I can't imagine why I would need more than 52 hymns. Even one per week seems excessive. Having two to choose from would bring us to about 100. There should be settings of the Marian antiphons, benediction and thanksgiving hymns, and hymns for seasons and solemnities. Some nice chant hymns in English (cf. Mundelein Psalter) would be a good start.

As regards Noel, he was the inspiration behind this. Really it began with a phonecall from a Dir of Music in a large parish. His hymnals are wearing out in this reform2 parish. He uses propers and ordinary but of course there are times when people sing hymns. One Mass on the weekend uses 4 hymns - the price he pays for the other Masses, so to speak. In any case, he started looking at what is available and couldn't bring himself to get anything from the existing bunch. All he wants are standard hymns that are known with good words that fit the season, with reliable and not wacky arrangements. Not a tall order. but it turns out that he could find not one single thing like that in print. He suggested the idea.

At the same time, Noel Jones has been independently been working within the creative commons context to liberate hymns. Working with Dr. Mahrt and Turkington and others, we suggested that he formalize this into a possible book from the CMAA, a radical venture to give the Catholic Church a gift in the form of standard English hymns that are reliable and completely open sourced. Master typesetter Jonathan Eason has agreed to jump in here with his excellent eye and expertise to make it consistent and to stay focused on formatting and choices.

I'm very optimistic about this. I'm sure that this forum will continue to be a great help as we proceed here, not only in posting all the hymns to the list but also in helping to contact publishers who hold copyright protected materials with the suggestion that the music be put into the commons as a charitable gift.

In time we can start working on a hymn solicitation from people for possible inclusion in the PBEH.

Once again, none of this would be possible without this wonderful forum and the whole of the CMAA. It's amazing what we can all do working together!

And let me add a final point about the scope here. Hardly a week goes by when I don't hear about another hymnal that someone is putting together. All of these efforts are great, and one has to be happy about them. but the truth is that most of the go nowhere and the reason is editorial. They have a difficult time containing the scope and the project goes on and on and on and then eventually fizzles with nothing to show for it. We don't want to make the same mistake, hence the 250 benchmark.

I would propose that such a hymnal should have ONLY hymns (and perhaps English chant ordinaries according to the new translation). Leave out the Missal portion, since that's available in the PBC! Then parishes that want the text of the Mass in the pews will have to buy a PBC as well.

I would hope that every tune for hymns in The Liturgy of the Hours would be included. I recently had someone ask me about that and didn't have a good answer (see: http://thomasgwyndunbar.wordpress.com/2009/08/01/liturgy-of-the-hours-hymns/ comments).

My main worries with this project would be:

1) Any time texts are used which are not explicitly approved by the Church, there are those who will argue whether the text is consonant with the Catholic faith. We see this in the discussions on protestant texts, and even nitpicking on "Now Thank We All Our God". I worry that this project could fall into such nitpicking unless strong editorial decisions are made. (and I might suggest seeking an imprimatur, nihil, etc. to reassure people that all texts are in fact OK)

2) I would not want to see this project eclipse the PBC. The PBC, I repeat, is the music of all Catholics and belongs in every Catholic pew. Perhaps there could be a reduced-cost bundling of the PBC and PBEH (fun to pronounce) or something. And as we discussed above, make sure PBEH lacks those things which can be found in PBC.

We consistently use English hymns in recessionals. I can't imagine that most parishes will achieve a world in which they are entirely absent.

I'm wild for the idea of office hymns. The back of Mundelein Psalter itself make a great hymnal.The problem here is: should the focus be on the hymns that people do sing (excluding of course hymns they should not sing) or on the hymns that people should sing? Realistically, too much focus on the latter would make the hymnal too pie in the sky.

"should the focus be on the hymns that people do sing (excluding of course hymns they should not sing) or on the hymns that people should sing?"

Both. People should see things they're familiar with and feel comfortable introducing something new. My suggestion would be maybe 20-25% new stuff and enough familiar stuff that people will be comfortable with the book. Also, go here to see what else such a hymnal should contain: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/neale/easternhymns.intro6.html

that's a good worry

I should add that the sequence of course will be to 1) publish online, and 2) only later in print. This would have the outstanding merit of permitting revisions and also making it clear (for the first time ever?) what hymns are part of the commons in every respect with no weird slicing and dicing between words, music, and typesetting.

there might be a future in that too

Furthering incantu's suggestion re:liturgical hymns, those hymns culled from the Office definitely should be labeled as such…prominently. It would help raise awareness of their proper place in the Roman liturgy.

I would like to see some decent communion hymns. We do Communion propers but also do hymns. The communion hymns in RitualSong are beyond wretched.

Jeffrey, in such an effort I would be willing to offer any of my hymn texts for use.