The Church's ONE Foundation
  • DrJS
    Posts: 5
    What do y'all think of the hymn, "The Church's One Foundation"? It struck me this past Sunday, on the Solemnity of Saints Peter and Paul, that one could read and sing this text as a rebuttal to the Church's Petrine authority. In other words, Peter is not the rock, rather, Jesus Christ is the one foundation.
    The hymn was written to be an exposition on the phrase, "the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints" from the Apostles' Creed. Does it teach accurately?
    Thanked by 2Kathy kenny
  • I honestly get really annoyed with it because its often used in the "common of virgins" just because it mentions "bride" in the text.

    I think it is better used for Common of Dedication of the Church.
    I wouldnt read into it too much though, I mean Jesus is the "Cornerstone" of our Faith, Peter is the rock because he is Christs vicar. The two dont need to be a dialectic but I guess some might certainly interpret it that way.
    Thanked by 1DrJS
  • DrJS
    Posts: 5
    That makes sense, and I do intend to continue using the hymn. I'm a convert from Lutheranism, so I'm still working through my personal theological baggage.
    Thanked by 1monasteryliturgist
  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 732
    ...that one could read and sing this text as a rebuttal to the Church's Petrine authority...


    I have wondered this myself, but I do use it...
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,950
    I like the tune with the lyrics "O Jesus Christ, Remember".

    Otherwise, I can't help but think of Fr. Zuhlsdorf's satirical take: "The Church's One Foundation is B-I-N-G-O . . ."
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,520
    I wondered something similar when Westminster Cathedral opened Pope BVI's visit with Christ Is Made the Sure Foundation.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,883
    So I like it a lot, having recently done a deep dive into the hymns that I know from my days in a conservative parish that also had the TLM and the ones that I could (potentially!) try out with the people here on occasions where the hymns are not currently satisfactory.

    I also am fond of AURELIA but thanks. Now I can’t un-hear it.

    The text is almost about virgins though because so much of what is true for the church is true of consecrated women religious who, ideally, are also virgins. But it’s a summary of the Apostles’ Creed: what is the holy catholic church (and implicitly the Nicene form: one, holy, catholic, and apostolic).

    It is Anglican in origin but it’s not meant to be anti-Petrine. If it is taken as such, then the person is kind of a ninny. Everyone should hold that the foundation is Christ. (Yes, Peter is also the rock; no, it’s not easy to explain.)

    Like, how many foundations does your house have??
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,559
    Ephesians 2: 19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
  • AnimaVocis
    Posts: 179
    As I am also a convert from Lutheranism (LC - Missouri Synod), I have a personal dilemma with that hymn. Where I grew up, it was sung, intended, and expounded in sermons about how it is specifically a rebuttal against petrine, papal, and traditional authority.

    That said, I feel as if those are aspect that were read into the text of the hymn, while the hymn itself doesn't mention those things.
    Thanked by 1DrJS
  • DrJS
    Posts: 5
    Where I grew up, it was sung, intended, and expounded in sermons about how it is specifically a rebuttal against petrine, papal, and traditional authority.

    That's exactly my dilemma as well. I'm from the same synod, so maybe we should start a support group (or an ordinariate with good hymnody?)
  • RoborgelmeisterRoborgelmeister
    Posts: 254
    This verse should NEVER be sung in a RCC, but a few poorly edited hymnals have included it (because of the love affair with The Episcopal Church):

    ”Though with a scornful wonder
    Men see her sore opprest,
    By schisms rent asunder,
    By heresies distrest;
    Yet saints their watch are keeping
    Their cry goes up, ”How long?”
    And soon the night of weeping
    Shall be the morn of song."

    Heretics and schismatics are not part of the Church, although the hymn implies that. It is implied because that is true for Anglicans (much as it makes some Anglicans chafe to the point that they enter the Ordinariate).
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,883
    I don’t think that the hymn implies that, independently of what Anglicans think about themselves, and, well, as much as I may hate to say it, the way that communio theology has taken hold means that baptism=part of the church, subject to the See of Peter, even if you are only imperfectly so or if you refuse to obey.
    Thanked by 2Liam CHGiffen
  • Felicia
    Posts: 133
    What do you think of "O Christ the Great Foundation," which is also sung to AURELIA. The author was Timothy T'ingfang Lew (I think he was Presbyterian). It is in Worship, 3rd edition. My parish sang this hymn when we had that hymnal. I liked the 4th verse, but we rarely sang 4 verses of anything at the time.

    https://hymnary.org/text/o_christ_the_great_foundation/
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • To me that verse just recalls Christs "Ut Unum Sint"...
    but I guess I never knew the history of the hymn to have that other interpretation.

    I think that the average Catholic singing it is not going to interpret it as protestants do, prob. only protestant converts to Catholicism who understand that aspect better on a personal level... so, my take is, you have to know your congregation, and whats going to be appropriately received, and what is not.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Felicia
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 369
    Heretics and schismatics are not part of the Church, although the hymn implies that.

    Of course they are. "The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter" (Lumen Gentium 15). You can't be a Christian unless you're part of the Church. If protestants are Christians they are, ergo, (albeit imperfectly) part of the Church.
  • Well, I don't think the lyrics comment on their membership in the Church either way, or denote that she lacks the four marks, just that heresies and schisms do afflict her.
    Thanked by 1GregoryWeber
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,520
    What do you think of "O Christ the Great Foundation," which is also sung to AURELIA. The author was Timothy T'ingfang Lew (I think he was Presbyterian). It is in Worship, 3rd edition. My parish sang this hymn when we had that hymnal. I liked the 4th verse, but we rarely sang 4 verses of anything at the time.

    https://hymnary.org/text/o_christ_the_great_foundation/


    I love this text. It does seem likely, though, that at some point it was amended, and not entirely skillfully. The third line of the 2nd verse almost certainly originally had "united" as its 5th, 6th, and 7th syllables, to rhyme with "invited" in the following line.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Felicia
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,309
    One wonders if "to keep the faith unbroken" - not rhymed with "pour out your Holy Spirit" - was the one break in the original rhyme scheme or if there was a rhymed pairing in the original text:

    https://jubilate.co.uk/songs/o_christ_the_great_foundation

    Could there have been "pour out [your/Thy] Spirit's unction" in slant rhyme with "to keep the faith unbroken"?
    Thanked by 2Felicia CHGiffen
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,520
    Good catch! Could be a rhyme with Spirit.

    To guard the Church and steer it, comes to mind.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen