Rift in Music Ministry

organdonor12

Last year, a priest asked me to donate my time and talent to provide the music at this Small Catholic Church. Previous, they had absolutely no music. So my teenage son (the cantor) and I (the organist) started to provide the music for them. I am a Gen Xer and my son is a teenager. So I have lived through the insufferable music of the 80's during the Mass. Frankly, I am tired of songs like, "On Eagles Wings", "Taste and See", "Amazing Grace", "Sing a new song", "We Are Many Parts" etc. They are so dull and boring to me. I do not mind the campfire folk songs, but my son and I agree that they should not be played during Mass.

Now a women, from the baby boomer generation, (who was going to Mass there before we arrived) has decided to join us to sing. She was in the choir at a previous parish. We try our best to stick to the traditional hymns, "All Glory, Laud and Honor", "Praise, My Soul, the King of Heaven", "Adoro Te Devote", "Panis Angelicus", "Salve Regina". We have an OCP song book, so it is pretty limited with regard to traditional hymns.

After a couple of months, she is starting to suggest songs to replace my traditional selections. For example for offertory, she wanted me to play "Like a Shepherd" by Bob Dufford in place of "Salve Regina" (For May crowning). For communion, I had selected "Adoro Te Devote" but she wanted us to change it to this Mary Song which was to the tune of "New Britain" (Amazing Grace). Our priest, is also traditional and he does NOT like Amazing Grace and has told my son and I that before. In order to compromise, I allowed the change for the Communion song but I kept the "Salve Regina" for Offertory. During offertory, and as if to pout she refused to sing the "Salve Regina" and just sat there. Our priest loves, "Salve Regina" and he belts it out every time we sing that song at Mass. She does not like singing the Latin and grumbles about it.

My question is this, how much should I cave to her demands? I do not like folk songs, they do not belong at Holy Mass so there is a rift. My convictions are that they do not raise our hearts and minds to God. I am angered and I almost want to tell if she what I am doing is not good enough...then I will gladly resign. I volunteer a lot of time trying to select appropriate songs and I do not like someone trying to change them. Am I being selfish or stubborn?

CGM

I think that the issue here is one of authority. If you're volunteering and this new singer is also volunteering, then she may feel that you and she are in some kind of equal partnership in the liturgical music-making.

I'd suggest talking to the priest, describing this personnel/musical challenge, and asking whether he supports your musical decisions and would designate you as the musician "in charge." If you have been given that authority from the pastor, then you are under no obligation to change any musical choices to fit the new singer's preferences, and you can calmly and gently say, "the pastor and I are on the same page, and these are the parish's musical decisions. You are welcome to join us in these particular songs."

That would be, I think, the cleanest and simplest solution.

organdonor12

Thank you, CGM, that is great advice. If this happens again, I will have a discussion with the parish priest.

You are spot on with it being an issue of authority. She looks at herself as the parent.

CatholicZ09

Sounds as if you have a good rapport with your priest. I’d make him aware of the situation since he should be the ultimate authority (is he the pastor?) I’d ask if he could make his priorities known.

Abbysmum

I agree with CGM. If you have the support of the priest, it really becomes a non-issue: you are in charge.

As a young Gen-Xer myself, I often notice that the pushback generally comes from that same age group - my kids and teens adore the more traditional hymns as well.

organdonor12

Thanks CatholicZ90, he is a pastor of three Parishes including this one. He asked me to move from one Parish to this one because of the lack of music there. I agree, I think we have a good rapport. I get lots of compliments from the congregation. They like the music selections.

I do not like to be a complainer and I want to try to handle it without being a bother to him since he juggles three parishes.

organdonor12

Abbysmum, thanks for sharing your experience. Our teenagers really show great promise for the future of the Church.

I think the boomer generation sees the folk music as a rebellion against their parent's generation...one that they just cannot let go of.

irishtenor

I agree that it would be good to have a conversation with the priest to determine: is he delegating the authority to select music to you? And will he stand with you if this lady makes an issue of it? If yes to both, you're in good shape!

Anna_Bendiksen

Be assured of my prayers!

RC_Liturgy_Music

I am so sorry you are going through this. I always tell people that Music Ministry is incredibly "political" and everyone has strong opinions. In my role, I do "try" to make everyone happy, but that is of course within certain bounds. I commend you for trying! It's always nice to try and avoid conflict, but again within certain bounds. We can't sacrifice good things for the sake of making others happy.

Might I share a similar story? I hope you don't mind. I play the organ (rarely the piano if I can help it) at my parish. I heard stories about a folk ensemble that was disbanded right before COVID. I was always so grateful that I didn't have to deal with that!!

One day, my pastor came up to me with the contact information of a guitarist telling me to call him and have him start playing at Mass. I was so upset, and politely tried to tell him I didn't like guitars at Mass. He insisted, and I obliged.

But I set clear bounds from the offset. (1) I am not picking special "guitar" music to cater to you. The normally scheduled hymns will still be used. (2) I am not giving up playing the organ just because there is a guitar. While piano might work better with a guitar than an organ, organ has pride of place. (3) I pick the music and you play along.

With these clear boundaries, the Mass went from Organ and Cantor to Organ and Cantor with some light guitar in the background. I tried my best to keep it tasteful. Me and this guitarist became great friends and I honestly must admit that I loved having him every week. He was such a joy to work with, never played irreverently or boisterously, and respected me tremendously.

So, in short, we sometimes are put in new and uncomfortable situations. This is normal! BUT!! it sounds like your situation is a little different. This woman is NOT respecting you the way my guitarist did. In that case, my pastor would say "never let someone poison the well."

I agree with everyone else - speak with your pastor and set some rules. Perhaps consider getting a new pew resource if possible. That way you have to select better music. Hope this helps!!

trentonjconn

Don't cave! If she doesn't want to sing the good stuff, she can sit and pout silently in the pews!

organdonor12

Thank you to, Irishtenor, Anna_Bendiksen (for the prayers...they are much needed), RC_Liturgy_Music (for sharing your experiences, it is wise to establish limits), and trentonjconn for reading and responding to my post.

Sometimes we have to stand for what is right. And I believe deeply that standing to keep the Sacred Traditional Hymns in the Holy Mass is something worth fighting for. I will be talking to my priest. I have heard that he possibly wants to change the books probably for more traditional music which would be great.

I much prefer to play the organ but they do not have an organ. They have a keyboard that I select to sound like an organ. They are a very small parish and funds are limited. I pray for a miracle to somehow get an organ one day.

If it comes to me having to cave, then I will resign.

Abbysmum

I think the boomer generation sees the folk music as a rebellion against their parent's generation...one that they just cannot let go of.

Possibly. I usually chalked it up to nostalgia - I do a lot of funerals, and 90% of the these days are Boomer kids burying their parents. It's the music they remember in their youth, and they simply don't know a lot of the older stuff. Or they remember it from before "the change" and try to convince me that it was all outlawed.

They're a funny bunch.

TimTheEnchanter

Not really advice but most of an observation:

You know, we sometimes tell people the best way to influence music ministry toward a more traditional bent is to be a part of music ministry and try to gently nudge it in. However, other people also tell people that the best way to influence music ministry is to be a part of music ministry and gently try to nudge it in. Guess what's happening here?

organdonor12

Thank you, TimTheEnchanter, it appears to me that this person thinks they are going to influence the music ministry with the swapping the traditional with contemporary folk songs. Maybe they are worming their way in, thinking they need to "fix" things with their choice folk songs (which they sung at a previous parish).

But see this is where the rift emerges because my conviction is that Traditional and Sacred Hymns do not need to be "fixed" or replaced with the contemporary. If that is case, I will step aside because I do not agree with those sentiments.

To me it is analogous to replacing a healthy diet with junk food.

CharlesW

I think the boomer generation sees the folk music as a rebellion against their parent's generation...one that they just cannot let go of.

No we don't. I thought it sounded like Schutte 50 years ago.

PaxMelodious

You can play an instrument. They (I assume) can't. That pretty much gives you the upper hand.

My guess is that the other person is simply suggesting music that they know. I would not even know the Salve Regina - and would struggle to see a Marian hymn as appropriate for offertory anyway: May crowning in strictly an after-Mass event in my worldview.

Ultimately the priest is responsible for approving all musical choices used at Mass.

Diapason84

As soon as possible, OP, you should arrange a meeting with the pastor to discuss your mutual vision about the music program. If he agrees to it overall, proceed to talk about whether he will give you administrative and decision-making powers, regardless of your status as a volunteer. Then, get it in writing, even if a simple one-page document. This will help establish better boundaries for pushy parishioners.

SponsaChristi

If only the Church had something to say on the matter and gave us authoritative guidance on liturgical music.

davido

People create tough situations.

I hate that it is passed off as folk music.
Folk music is something that was sung by the unlearned in an era before mass media. This stuff is fake folk music, heavily commercialized at this point.

organdonor12

Like a Shepherd- has some confusing lyrics.

Here are the lyrics:

Like a shepherd He feeds His flock
And gathers the lambs in His arms
Holding them carefully close to His heart
Leading them home

Say to the cities of Judah
"Prepare the way of the Lord"
Go to the mountain top, lift your voice
"Jerusalem, here is your God"

Like a shepherd He feeds His flock
And gathers the lambs in His arms
Holding them carefully close to His heart
Leading them home

I myself will shepherd them
For others have led them astray
The lost I will rescue and heal their wounds
And pasture them, giving them rest
Like a shepherd He feeds His flock
And gathers the lambs in His arms
Holding them carefully close to His heart
Leading them home

Come unto me
If you are heavily burdened
And take my yoke upon your shoulders
I will give you rest

Like a shepherd He feeds His flock
And gathers the lambs in His arms
Holding them carefully close to His heart
Leading them home

So the songs starts off in the third person. Then halfway through it says, “I myself will shepherd them..”. Who will shepherd them? The cantor? I guess it then switches to first person halfway through so maybe that is supposed to be Jesus speaking.

Diapason84

Trying to reason one's way through the so-called logic of a Fr. Bob Dufford song is known to cause cranial pain. In previous instances, I have taken a Tylenol and called Dr. John M. Neale in the morning.

Rivegauche

“Guess what's happening here?” Simple: preliminary steps to body checking, high sticking and boarding, aka “The Parish Worship and Music Committee.”

CatholicZ09

Dufford’s music has to be the most un-singable stuff out there when we think about the “greatest Catholic hits” from the immediate post-Vatican 2 era. Each verse has a different melody in most of his stuff. I’m glad my parish has put the majority of his music away.

francis

Here's a routine reminder: These reminders are displayed randomly, and are not based on users' comments.

However, you are either paranoid or the AI really are out to get you!

Don9of11

@organdonor12
I sympathize with your baby boomer, although I do not like her hymn selection. I am a baby boomer too, I have been singing at my parish for more than 40 years, and over all for nearly 50 years. My organist is as you put it is "a Gen Xer." At St. Mary's in Akron, Ohio we also use the OCP missallette, Breaking Bread. I don't care for some of the hymn selections that my organist chooses.

She put out a list of hymns for Holy Week thru mid-July and she sent it to pastor, another choir member, and to me. The list was quite abysmal. She uses the OCP liturgy guide to choose hymns, and quite frankily, OCP doesn't care about a parish and so there hymn recommendations are awful.

So I took the opportunity presented to me. She had asked if we have any suggestions please let her know, boy that was like a green light! So what I did was go through the missallette and I found all the "traditional" Catholic hymns that I know; those that I could sing a capella. I called it the "OCP Song List for St. Mary's" with over 95 traditional hymns, its an excel file. I sent it back to her, and the pastor with this comment:

I have made several suggestions on your hymn list (in red) based on my long time singing here at St. Mary’s. I include an excel file with hymns taken from the missalette that I feel are more in line with what I would like to sing and I think what St. Mary’s congregation would like to sing

I have to say, she is a "good sport" as she started to incorporate some of the hymn recommendations I made. Our Good Friday services were much more sacred then if we had used her selections, and she admitted that mine were better.

If your "baby boomer" is not from the parish then she would not be familiar with the musical traditions of that parish, and truthfully shouldn't be make wholesale recommendations. If you are new, or realatively so, then you need to learn more about the parish and the musical traditions of the past. So try and seek out choir members who used to sing at this parish, see what they say. Not that you need to incorporate everthing, but in the words of St. Paul, "help to preserve" them.

It's not always about the organist and how you feel, it's about singing hymns that are both reverent, prayerful, and instructive in the Catholic faith, but also engaging to the congregation. Ideally, you want everyone to sing or participate.

If she doen't like your selections, then you have two choices, she has to step away or she has to accept your choice of hymns. See if you can't find a middle grown though, have her go through the missallette, have her choose hymns from the resource that you have to work with.

I attached my hymn list. May be it will be helpful.

CatholicZ09

Our committee uses the OCP Today’s Liturgy planner, but the suggestions are often abysmal. They suggest things that are more suited for a campfire, and it’s expected because they have to promote their composers’ stuff.

I like it to have the liturgies planned in one source, but I often ignore the “suggested hymns.” Sometimes when we’re stuck on something, the suggestions help, but most of the time, they don’t.

Abbysmum

@Don9of11 - thanks for sharing your experiences!

While you make an important point about respecting a parish's musical traditions, I see a few key differences between your situation and what the OP described.

First of all, your input was invited. That makes a difference. I don't think the OP has invited the parishioner to make this input. Should the OP extend the invite? Perhaps.

Secondly, you were reasonable, measured and provided a well-organized and thought-out response. You didn't sit in the pews and sulk and refuse to participate.

Thirdly, there are objectively bad hymns. Either musically (see the above Bob Dufford complaint about ever-changing verses etc) or theologically (there exists somewhere a USCCB report on dubious hymns, which even calls some out for being bad). Regardless of the musical tradition of the parish, if it includes objectively bad hymns, it might be time to move on from them.

And lastly, one needs to have a grasp of the liturgy to select music. If the OP's person is suggesting "Like A Shepherd" for a May Crowning, that suggests that may not be the case. One can argue that this problem can be remedied with education, but unless the person is willing to learn (and a teacher is willing to teach), there can be no progress.

I don't think anyone is trying to make this a "Boomers are bad" conversation, but it's simply an observation that the music that belongs to that age group & era has a particular set of ... peculiarities. I suspect most organists and people assuming responsibility for music programs in our parishes are going to be Gen X and younger, simply because Boomers are aging out.

Curiously enough, I do have Boomer friends who talk about wanting to hang on to "parish traditions", when our parish is over 125 years old and most of those "traditions" only appeared in the 70s and 80s, so 50 years or less ago. It kinda disregards all the years of tradition that preceded that. I think that's a really interesting blind spot that we all can be prone to, not fully realizing what we think of as "tradition" isn't always necessarily so.

Don9of11

@Abbysmum

And lastly, one needs to have a grasp of the liturgy to select music.

This is only part of the "equation" and a part that I feel after many years of singing, that younger musicians seem to think is the "only way".

I tried to pass on to the OP what I did in my parish with the resources available and it seems to be working. Because like the OP, I was tired of the hymns like "On Eagles Wings", "Taste and See", "Amazing Grace", "Sing a new song", "We Are Many Parts" etc, that really don't offer any spiritual nourishment to me.

Now my organist doesn't have to take any of my recommendations and just blow me off. My choice then is to either walk away or sing hymns that are not spiritually nourishing to me or the congregation. I don't like either option. So, I tried to compromise, to meet half way or even part way and the fact that the pastor was part of the triangle was an opportunity I couldn't pass up.

There is nothing wrong with "preserving" parish musical traditions that go back 30, 50, 70, or even 100 years. The many who came before us received "spiritual nourishment" from them. What's wrong with singing "O Jesus Christ remember, When Thou shat come again." For a younger generation, hungry for good Catholic music that is prayerful, reverent, and instructive, many of the old hymns can be made new again.

The circumstances at each parish are different and the organist or MD has a responibility to do whatever he/she can do to choose hymns that are revent, prayerful, and instructive in the Catholic faith. If they match or reinforce the message in the readings that great, but there is also a need for "spiritual nourishment" in the Catholic faith.

Chant_Supremacist

I do know what you're saying. If I were taking on a musically wanting parish I would not immediately and high-handedly change everything, but would make changes intelligently while taking some pains to retain whatever is good or acceptable.

I'm not overly familiar with post-V2 hymnody, because I have always sought out good liturgy and avoided bad, but I grant it's unlikely that every single hymn from a generally bad hymnal or decade is unworthy. So yes, surely there are some hymns that can find their place, perhaps sometimes with better instrumentation, vocal technique, and a few word changes.

At the same time I think if providence puts one in a position to make decisive changes for the better, one should make them and not chase after compromise for the sake of being nice. If that means wresting influence from a few individuals, or shutting down bad suggestions, don't feel guilty about doing it.

organdonor12

Don9of11,

I looked over your list and it is identical to the personal binder of songs that I play for Holy Mass. There are a few that I do not have so I will be adding them to my binder of music. I am always on the lookout to add more traditional hymns. You and I definitely have similar tastes and preferences.

As a compromise, I could show your list to the woman and tell her that if she does not like the song selection she can pick anything from the list! I will happily swap it out for something else on the list.

When I played the "Attende Domine" during Lent, my four year old was singing along! My kids have NO desire to sing any of those happy clappy folk songs.

Don9of11

@organdonor12

I am glad you like my list and I hope it can work for you as it working for St. Mary's. Here are a few resources I think you'll like too. The first is The Devotional Hymns Project which is produced by forum member oldhymns. If you like devotional music, this is a true gold mine. The second, is the Sacred Music Library which publishes A Catholic Book of Hymns and Chants with over 295 time honored Catholic Hymns. Noel Jones owns the Sacred Music Library and he has a ton of resources you might like as well. The last is my own website where I have published a collection of hymns to St. Joseph, and each month I do a write-up on a Catholic hymn that I sang in the choir or that I have come to know through research it's called HYMN OF THE MONTH.

The Devotional Hymns Project - https://www.catholicdevotionalhymns.com/

Sacred Music Library - https://sacredmusiclibrary.com/hymnal

Mother of Mercy Catholic Hymns - https://www.motherofmercycatholichymns.com/

PaxMelodious

Thankyou Don9of11, I don't think I've ever seen this sentiment so well stated:

It's not always about the organist and how you feel, it's about singing hymns that are both reverent, prayerful, and instructive in the Catholic faith, but also engaging to the congregation. Ideally, you want everyone to sing or participate.

What we do in the average parish is pretty much impossible: try to do music which everyone (young, old, musically educated and ignorant) sees as reverent, spiritually nourishing and theologically engaging.

I love the challenge -and the need to work with whoever the Holy Spirit sends my way. But I never forget just how enormous a challenge it is: one person's reverence is another's pomposity.

PaxMelodious

Oh - and the remarks about "folk music" are odd, when I see that Don9of11's list includes Silent Night and Immaculate Mary: Both are absolutely classic "folk music".

SponsaChristi

Our committee uses the OCP Today’s Liturgy planner, but the suggestions are often abysmal. They suggest things that are more suited for a campfire, and it’s expected because they have to promote their composers’ stuff.

The fact that OCP only lists the shortened, watered down Ephesians 5 reading for weddings in their liturgical planning section, which specifically omits “wives be subject to your husband”, they have lost all credibility when it comes to liturgical matters, IMHO. It’s not for them to omit the Church’s Mass readings because their lack of understanding in biblical interpretation causes them to be offended.

ServiamScores

Dont forget CanticaNova's liturgical planning guide too. It pulls from lots of different sources, but there are many excellent hymn suggestions in addition to the choral repertoire. I find it quite handy, and definitely more edifying than the OCP / GIA suggestions, which I've instructed our parish secretary to put strait in the bin, rather than my mailbox.

davido

Cantina Nova is wonderful. I hear Gary is retiring from his church job this year, hopefully CanticaNova continues for many years.
I like to look at the GIA quarterly, get angry, and THEN throw put it in the bin. Probably not as healthy.

DavidOLGC

PaxMelodious May 16 Thanks
Posts: 450
Oh - and the remarks about "folk music" are odd, when I see that Don9of11's list includes Silent Night and Immaculate Mary:

A bit off topic, but isn't "Silent Night" possibly the first use of guitar at Mass?

Don9of11

A bit off topic, but isn't "Silent Night" possibly the first use of guitar at Mass?

I agree with you and the text of Silent Night, was written by a Catholic priest.

Even more off topic is why we don't sing the Catholic version of Silent Night, the version that appeared in Catholic hymnals from the 1880s and faded away by the 1950s in favor of the translation by the Episcopal priest John young.

francis

Oh, please post the Catholic version here… I would probably include that in my hymnal

CGM

The 1920 Catholic Hymnal, edited by John G. Hacker SJ, provides this unattributed translation:

1. Silent night! Holy night!
All is calm, all is bright
Round yon Virgin undefiled,
In whose arms the Holy Child
Slumbers in heavenly peace,
Slumbers in heavenly peace.

2. Silent night! Holy night!
Shepherds first see the sight,
Hear the plains and valleys ring
With the song that angels sing:
"Jesus the Savior is born!
Jesus the Savior is born!"

3. Silent night! Holy night!
Son of God, Light of light!
Streams of gladness flood the earth,
From Thy cradle at Thy birth,
Jesus, Thou Light of the world!
Jesus, Thou Light of the world!

CGM

And in Don9of11's post above, his attachment contains this translation, from the 1880 Laudis Corona hymnal. The document states that, "These verses will seem foreign, but they were for nearly a century in the hearts and mind of Catholics during the Christmas tide."

1. Silent night, sacred night,
Bethlehem sleeps, yet what light
Floats around the holy Pair:
Songs of angels fill the air,
Strains of heavenly peace,
Strains of heavenly peace.

2. Silent night, sacred night,
Shepherds first see the light,
Hear the Alleluias ring,
Which the angel-chorus sing;
Christ the Savior has come,
Christ the Savior has come.

3. Silent night, sacred night,
Son of God! oh, what light
Radiates from thy manger-bed
Over realms with darkness spread,
Thou in Bethlehem born,
Thou in Bethlehem born.

mmeladirectress

these are lovely! thanks for sharing

francis

I will put them in the Fleur

ServiamScores

I rather like the Laudis Corona version.

francis

Please post Laudis version

trentonjconn

It is in the CGM comment above, Francis.

francis

Ah yes… thanks… brain disconnect….

oldhymns

Here is a link to the Catholic version of Silent Night from my website www.catholicdevotionalhymns.com. It is sung by the Ensemble Altera Choristers of Providence, RI, at Blessed Sacrament Church, Providence.

https://www.catholicdevotionalhymns.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/altera10_-_Silent_Night.mp3

matthewj

Does your priest sing his parts of the Mass? Sometimes hearing sung dialogues/orations makes the other musical changes make more sense in the eyes of those who prefer other music.

organdonor12

Yes, our Priest does sing his parts of the Mass. During Lent, he started singing the Kyrie chant and so I offered to play it for him.

I found this new song and I wanted to ask what others thought of it before I began playing it at Mass. It is called "O Sacrum Convivium" by Ricky Manalo, CSP. The lyrics are as follows:

Refrain:

O sacrum convivium! O sacred banquet!
Behold, the meal where Christ is received.
O sacrum convivium! O sacred banquet!
May we become what we receive.

Versus:

1. O Christ, in our mem-ry your passion is renewed. Be then the story of our salvation. Be now our saving meal.
2. O Christ, in your rising our minds are filled with grace. Be our desire for grace and wisdom. Be now our saving meal.
3. O Christ, may this banquet remind us of our call to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to shelter those without homes.
4. O Christ, may this banquet provide for those who thirst; and may we visit the sick and the imprisioned, and comfort those who mourn.
5. O Christ, in this banquet transform our hearts anew that we become what we receive, and so give glory to you.
6. O Christ, in your promise our lives have been restored. Give us our pledge of future glory. Be now our vision of hope!

The one thing I do not like about it is the preoccupation without "we" and "our".

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