Variations on rubrics according to country?
  • TLMlover
    Posts: 36
    Hi all,

    Is there a GIRM for each country? Or are all alternate rubrics listed in the one GIRM? How would we know, when somebody says "It's not done that way in my country," if there are actual distinct rubrics for that particular country?

    Did such a thing as alternate rubrics or "choices" exist, pre-Novus Ordo?


    Thanks in advance!
    Thanked by 1igneus
  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 706
    To answer your last question, yes. There were indults granting vernacular hymnody at High Mass in Germanic lands, vernacular propers on Indian reservations in the U.S., the Tridentine Mass said in Old Church Slavonic instead of Latin, etc. These things mostly came from long-established cultural practices though as opposed to stemming from excessive optionality as one finds in the current missal.
  • Abbysmum
    Posts: 39
    Is there a GIRM for each country? Or are all alternate rubrics listed in the one GIRM? How would we know, when somebody says "It's not done that way in my country," if there are actual distinct rubrics for that particular country?


    IDK how distinct they are, but there are definitely different GIRMs for each country. For example, Canada has it's own distinct one issued by the CCCB, while the US has one approved by the USCCB.

    And according to my husband (who works with and trains altar servers), there are some small differences between how Canada and the US do things, but I couldn't tell you what they are.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,257
    There are approved local adaptations of the GIRM, set forth in each local Missal edition.
  • TLMlover
    Posts: 36
    Wow, very complicated. I never knew this!!

    So for priests celebrating Mass in a foreign country, they need to review the GIRM of that particular country and abide by it, correct?

    I would imagine that there are certain prayers or actions which are universal, though, right?

    How does this all fit together with lex orandi lex credendi?

    Thanks.
    Thanked by 1Abbysmum
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,728
    In practice so long as they are not there long enough to be quasi-domiciled, or do not say a public Mass for anyone except pilgrims, then they don’t have to follow it. I have an American friend who lived in France. Obviously, when he said public Mass in French, he needed to follow the proper parts for every Sunday that French-speaking areas had for the Eucharistic prayer as an adaptation (at least until they got their new missal). But they aren’t in the Latin, so his Masses in Latin didn’t use them; ironically, the problem is that priests less familiar with the Latin NO didn’t know this.

    The calendar is another place where there are obvious conflicts.

    The preconciliar rubrics specify what calendar to follow for seculars and religious who are traveling and such, but that only made sense in the period when someone in the church building itself could point it out to you, even as the rubrics became messy, to the point of each diocese not only having a different ordo but with disagreement on the things in common (unfortunately not unusual from 1912 to 1954) and where almost everyone had the same basic missal. Now, even if you could theoretically just use the common, it feels a bit silly to follow the proper calendar in another vernacular — even if you don’t wind up following your own national calendar since you’re abroad.

    Unity is not uniformity. I think that there are some local adaptations (what we call them now) and indults or whatever (previously, these decrees were all separate from the rubrics themselves) that need to be suppressed or which are unwise but tolerable. But the principle is the same.
    Thanked by 1Chant_Supremacist
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,995
    This post ("Frequently Asked Questions about the GIRM") has some links, though I haven't checked whether they are still good:
    https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/7869/frequently-asked-questions-about-the-girm
  • Palestrina
    Posts: 446
    In the context of the 1962 Missal, I think it would be fantastic to have some kind of study of local adaptations (whether by custom or decree) by country. There clearly were some interesting local differences.

    I'd also be interested to know to what extent post World War II diaspora communities were permitted to retain 'country of origin' customs and laws. I can't imagine, for instance, the hundreds of European refugees temporarily resettled in parts of Africa, during and after World War II, following the local calendar so 'religiously' as to give up their proper national feasts.

    After that, it would be interesting to get a binding ruling as to what can be used where.

    I am thinking, in particular, of whether the Weller Rituale could be used throughout the Anglosphere.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,728
    The Weller wasn’t ever approved for liturgical use. It’s a study edition, and it shouldn’t be approved now even for want of something better, not as is.

    Each country or sub-national unit (I imagine that Québec could have used the French version of the ritual, but may not have done so, just like the US didn’t just share a ritual with England) had a Collectio rituum or whatever it was called (Excerpta…, for example). The American version even had different language texts for the possible vernacular languages for the marriage rite.
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  • PLTT
    Posts: 163
    @MatthewRoth that is not exactly true. In the first stages of Sacrosanctum Concilium, there was some approval for parts of the Weller ritual - probably since it was the only complete one extant at the time. See the NCCB decree of April 1964.

    Re: the calendar - nowadays, in my (admittedly limited) experience, most priests are woefully ignorant about the liturgical calendar, as are many seminary liturgy instructors. I doubt you would even find instruction in a seminary course or practicum on what is a priest's proper calendar. The religious may have some rudimentary knowledge, but even they are not instructed.

    Part of the problem is also that most of the information on proper calendars that was laid out in the Rubriciae Generales of 1962 was moved to a separate instruction and then promptly forgotten. And given that many priests are less particular about getting parts of the Mass correct, and being bound under pain of sin to do X and Y......proper calendars don't get a lot of airtime.
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  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,850
    I thought the main problem with the Weller is the translation, it has not be authorised. The Latin on the other hand is I think concordant with other Rituale.

    As for Calendars, it is not very easy to find a calendar, and when compared with other years or other Missale you will end up with more questions...
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,728
    Yes. But the point is the translation which blows. And it’s 1964 permissions whereas we are bound to 1962.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Abbysmum
    Posts: 39
    So for priests celebrating Mass in a foreign country, they need to review the GIRM of that particular country and abide by it, correct?


    In a nutshell, yes? We are fairly close to the US border—about an hour. At one point, we were without a pastor and only had a parochial vicar (we usually have both due to size etc) (that is an extremely long story on how we ended up in that position), and we had a priest who would occasionally come up from North Dakota to supply us for Sunday if none were available from Winnipeg. There were some subtle differences in some of the things he did. IDK if maybe it was also attributable to originating in a different diocese, and I think he was also part of a religious community. The broad strokes were the same—only some details differed.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,728
    Yes exactly.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw