Rest in peace PP Francis
  • francis
    Posts: 11,175
    As good sons and daughters of mother church, we do not judge, condemn or speak Ill of ANY person. However, we are obliged to judge, weigh and determine justice of ones words and actions. This is for the clarity of truth especially for the naive, deceived, ignorant, children and in refutation of the father of lies himself. We are ALL held in account for those things which-

    ”I confess to Almighty God, to Blessed Mary, ever Virgin, to Blessed Michael the Archangel, to Blessed John the Baptist, to the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul, and to all the Saints, that I have sinned exceedingly in thought, word and deed, through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault.

    Therefore, I beseech Blessed Mary, ever Virgin, Blessed Michael the Archangel, Blessed John the Baptist, the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul, and all the Saints, to pray to the Lord our God for me. Amen.”
  • Padster
    Posts: 47
    Isn't religion wonderful? It's very similar to politics in my opinion. Indeed, the way the pope stacked the College of Cardinals with sympathisers reminds me of the British Prime Minister and the House of Lords.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Trudeau did the same thing with the Canadian Senate, get this though, he kept appointing liberal senators even after announcing his intention to resign. But the Church, unlike Canada, will endure until the end of time.
  • francis
    Posts: 11,175
    Remember this eternal. Religion is the face of the church. Do not distort the face of Christ, or you will be held accountable for doing so.
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,961
    I think it's Paradiso XII where Dante mentions that St. Thomas Aquinas gives a eulogy of St. Francis of Assisi, followed by St. Bonaventure returning the favor by giving a eulogy of St. Dominic.

    Give or take a few details, there's no reason to think that Dante got it wrong in describing how Heaven (let alone Hell or Purgatory) will operate. We shall be called upon to recognize the beauty and glory of those whose spirituality differs from ours. Francis may have been no great lover of tradition, but he had a love for the poor, a love for Creation, and a love for the Blessed Virgin. Let us commend him for that.
  • Aleteia published yesterday these interesting quotes from St Catherine

    Even if the Pope were Satan incarnate, we ought not to raise up our heads against him, but calmly lie down to rest on his bosom. He who rebels against our Father is condemned to death, for that which we do to him we do to Christ: We honor Christ if we honor the Pope; we dishonor Christ if we dishonor the Pope.


    Some might object to such a forceful statement, as some popes in the history of the Church have lived very sinful lives. However, she buckled down and defended this position:

    I know very well that many defend themselves by boasting: “They are so corrupt, and work all manner of evil!” But God has commanded that, even if the priests, the pastors, and Christ-on-earth were incarnate devils, we be obedient and subject to them, not for their sakes, but for the sake of God, and out of obedience to Him.


    Nota Bene: not to say anyone here has done so, I just thought it was a beautiful follow up
    Thanked by 1Roborgelmeister
  • On the other hand, I recently saw a saint quoted with words to the effect that to fail to criticize the Pope when necessary is to be disloyal.
    Thanked by 2francis tomjaw
  • @Chant_Supremacist yes, she also does that...but she does that by letter...privately etc. Like as was said above... its fine to correct, as long as its done in the right way, right time, if you know the person will receive it fruitfully etc... its all about discernment. Fraternal Correction isnt a give all... there is a way to do it, and a way not to do it. That comes with practice, discretion etc. Its not an easy way to give correction- its more challenging- but it is the best way.
  • Do you have a way to provide private fraternal correction to the pope? I don't. Please don't say to write him a letter.

    Recently a cardinal asserted that public mourning of his death demonstrates we must continue his programme, since "the people have spoken." I found that extremely distasteful, since I've participated and will continue to participate in mourning as is fitting, and don't want it construed for someone's agenda. It seems that whether we want it or not we get sucked up into this and grumbling needs to heard or silence will be taken as agreement.
  • Padster
    Posts: 47
    In the light of the sexual abuse scandals within the church, I find the comments of St Catherine somewhat anachronistic. Such opinions ensured that the abuse was not fully dealt with. We should not tolerate evil, no matter who is doing it.
  • My goodness people... do as your conscience tells you. I opened this topic on the forum with words that were specifically written so as not to bring up the Holy Fathers moral character- it was still brought up.

    Do as you think- as your conscience tells you. For me, I prefer always speaking about people with Charity in public and praying for change and conversion through penance and sacrifice, and as a Spouse of Christ, I feel its my duty to step up when his ministers are spoken ill of- whether or not they are right words. Words never change people nor the church only prayer does.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,908
    "I find the comments of St Catherine..." It would be best to read our instructions on this from the Bible, St Catherine was referring to 1. Tim 5.19 but it would be good to read 1 Tim 5.20 as well.

    Gal 6.1 "Brethren, and if a man be overtaken in any fault, you, who are spiritual, instruct such a one in the spirit of meekness, considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted."


    Matt 18.15 "But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother. And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. "


    1. Tim 5, 19-20 "Against a priest receive not an accusation, but under two or three witnesses. 20Them that sin reprove before all: that the rest also may have fear."


    This is found in the Spiritual works of mercy,
  • well put.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • francis
    Posts: 11,175
    This
    E7E5C4C4-7C96-44E9-8F69-BB68CC64684F.jpeg
    960 x 781 - 130K
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • "On account of which dignity and authority I do not wish them to be punished by the hand of seculars on account of any personal defect, for those who punish them offend Me miserably. But I wish seculars to hold them in due reverence, not for their own sakes, as I have said, but for Mine, by reason of the authority which I have given them...You
    should love them therefore by reason of the virtue and dignity of the Sacrament,
    and by reason of that very virtue and dignity you should hate the defects of those
    who live miserably in sin, but not on that account appoint yourselves their
    judges,
    which I forbid, because they are My Christs, and you ought to love and reverence the authority which I have given them...

    Their sins indeed should displease you, and you should hate them, and strive
    with love and holy prayer to reclothe them,
    washing away their foulness with
    your tears
    —that is to say, that you should offer them before Me with tears and
    great desire, that I may reclothe them in My goodness, with the garment of
    charity. Know well that I wish to do them grace, if only they will dispose
    themselves to receive it, and you to pray for it; for it is not according to My Will
    that they should administer to you the Sun being themselves in darkness, not that
    they should be stripped of the garment of virtue, foully living in dishonor; on the
    contrary I have given them to you, and appointed them to be earthly angels and
    suns, as I have said. It not being My Will that they should be in this state, you
    should pray for them, and not judge them, leaving their judgment to Me.
    And I,
    moved by your prayers, will do them mercy if they will only receive it, but if
    they do not correct their life, their dignity will be the cause of their ruin.
    For if
    they do not accept the breadth of My mercy, I, the Supreme Judge, shall terribly
    condemn them at their last extremity, and they will be sent to the eternal fire.”
    -Dialogue of St.Catherine, Doctor of the Church
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen tomjaw francis
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,908
    As St John writes
    1 John 4.20 "If any man say, I love God, and hateth his brother; he is a liar. For he that loveth not his brother, whom he seeth, how can he love God, whom he seeth not?"
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,235
    I don't deserve mercy either.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,464
    The point of so many of Jesus' most pungent parables is that God's mercy is not about fairness. (Every single one of the Eleven forsook him after the betrayal in the Garden, after all. Even the Beloved Disciple - which, btw, is almost entirely ignored by folks. Even *after* the Resurrection, at least seven of the Eleven (Peter, Thomas, Nathanael/Bartholomew, John, James the Greater, and I would imagine Andrew and Philip are likely the other two unnamed ones given that Andrew was Peter's brother and Philip was Nathanael's fellow Galilean buddy)... returned to Galilee to ... fish. And St Matthew's account of the Great Commission notes - something else almost entirely ignored by folks - that even then some of the Eleven still doubted. (!*) Yet the Church was founded on those very men as its leadership - which is a very strange setup from typical human institutional expectations. We lose sight of this when we collapse the foundational chapter of the Church into what followed it.)

    * Worth remembering whenever one lapses into the comfortable delusion that, if one had witnessed the newly Risen Lord, one would have surely believed all the more readily. Nope. His closest friends and collaborators - at least among the men - didn't all quite. Are we a better form of clay?
  • I do not hope that those Priests burn in hell, I hope that they shall be with me in Heaven. I hope and pray for their conversions, that they truly repented and wept for their sins. We all DESERVE hell, but we are not counting on a God who looks at our deserving, but a God who welcomes us when we ask pardon and try to change our lives. I am not saying that Hell doesnt exist, or that people dont go there- quite the contrary. But, if I have received mercy, I hope that they shall as well because in the end the size of the sin doesnt matter. All sin is the same thing- an offense against God, the one who deserves our love. But God says, "I do not rejoice in the death of the sinner, but that he turn to me and be saved."

    Also, those "accused priests", more than half of them have not actually been confirmed as having done so. A lot of it is based only on testimony, and I know many priests who were accused because someone didnt like the way they celebrated mass, or someone had a bone to pick with the church, etc.... There were cases of priests who had been laicized by the vatican without having a proper trial, and years later the "victims" come out and confess that they did it for money or that they were abused but not by the priest, by someone else close to them but they were afraid to say who the real person was... Im not discrediting Victims, because I know there are true ones, what I am saying is- leave judgement to God... we wont know until the last day what was true and what wasnt- and as we say daily, "forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive those who tresspass against us." So, I fear that if we say, "I hope so and so burns in hell" for whatever reason, how shall God be merciful to us, if we are not merciful to others? If you want mercy, be merciful.
  • I cant remember if it was St. Mechtilde or St. Gertrude, but one of them, I read one time in a vision asked our Lord, "Is Judas in Hell" and the response of Our Lord was,

    "If I told you, people would take advantage of my mercy."
    Thats not a yes or a no, and its private revelation, so you dont have to believe it... but wow its powerful. We dont know the last few moments of ones life, what happen, if a person truly converts. God will use anything to save us. How can we desire His blood to fall in vain?

    O Jesus, eternal Priest,
    keep your priests within the shelter of Your Sacred Heart, where none may touch them.
    Keep unstained their anointed hands, which daily touch Your Sacred Body.
    Keep unsullied their lips, daily purpled with your Precious Blood.
    Keep pure and unearthly their hearts, sealed with the sublime mark of the priesthood.
    Let Your holy love surround them and shield them from the world’s contagion.
    Bless their labors with abundant fruit and may the souls to whom they minister be their joy and consolation here and in heaven their beautiful and
    everlasting crown.
    St Therese of the Child Jesus and the Holy Face
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 12,041
    One can wish no evil on someone, hope for the eternal best for them, wish them well, and still hold that they did a lousy job.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,464
    Yes one can.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,908
    Once again we are instructed by scripture, Luke 17...
    AND he said to his disciples: It is impossible that scandals should not come: but woe to him through whom they come. It were better for him, that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should scandalize one of these little ones. Take heed to yourselves. If thy brother sin against thee, reprove him: and if he do penance, forgive him. And if he sin against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day be converted unto thee, saying, I repent; forgive him.


    We are instructed to forgive, if we can't forgive we sin against charity. Our Lord himself tells us the gravity of the penalty awaiting those that scandalise (and worse) to the little ones, and do not repent.
  • With all of this-Heaven sounds more and more desirable.
    Veni Domine et noli tardare! (Alleluia P.T. )
    :)
  • Padster
    Posts: 47
    So let's all do what the Hell we want. It doesn't matter. Why bother with church tomorrow? If the scum of the earth can enter Heaven, nothing matters!. We are wasting our time. As an organist, I once had to assist a priest with the incense as well as play the organ (not at the same time!). Then one day he disappeared, and I subsequently discovered he had been viewing child pornography on his computer.

    People like that should not be entering Heaven.
  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 772
    They should be if they contritely confess their sins, are absolved, and do penance. This is basic Catholic doctrine, is it not??
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 12,041
    There is a big difference between forgiveness and turning a blind eye to faults and failures. One can realize the snake killed your dog without condemning it for being intrinsically evil. The snake was dangerous. Let those who have eyes, see. Those with ears, hear. Charity is not pretending something dangerous doesn't exist.
  • @Padster I am sorry for your experience. However, We are not saying that you can do whatever you want- but the Sacrament of Confession was established for a reason. Jesus came to save sinners. If a priest repents of his sins, even the most terrible ones, he should be allowed to enter Heaven.
    ___________________________________________________________________________________

    Forgiveness is something difficult for us to understand, because we try and think of justice in human terms, rather than from a supernatural view point. The reality is- even a terrible sinner was redeemed at the price of the blood of Christ, and it is not ours to decide whether that blood should be given for some sinners and sins and not others. Christ died for all. His sacrament of penance was established for ALL Sinners.

    There is a beautiful story from I believe Germany, where a notorious sinner continued in the same mortal sins. He fell again and again, finally the confessor told Him, I will not forgive you- you are not truly sorry since you keep falling. With tears in his eyes the penitent begged for absolution, but it wasnt given. Then, the crucifix behind the Priest, reached down and gave absolution saying, "I myself absolve Him. I shed my blood for this man, not you."

    Forgiveness comes at a big price- the price of crucifixion. But it actually hurts us more when we dont. Sin is terrible, nasty, especially when it comes from souls consecrated to God, but Jesus established the sacraments for a reason.
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • And again I just want to clarify, I am not saying that we should turn a blind eye on sin etc... all I am saying is that there is a way to correct and a way not to correct, if you cant do it in the right way- God might not be calling YOU to do it. But he always calls us to mercy toward sinners and prayer and sacrifice is more effective for the conversion of heart than words are.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 12,041
    Some people are beyond correction for numerous reasons. Sometimes, you have to do what you think best and let them go their own way.
  • thats why....nothing beats prayer and sacrifice.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 12,041
    Prayer is good, but others can be a danger to you that is best avoided.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • I didnt sign my life away on the altar for nothing. Im not gonna change my mind, and Im not going to stop coming to the defense of Christs ministers. Sin is bad. Correct if you can charitably and effectively, if not pray and sacrifice. Punto. I entered Religion specifically for Priestly souls.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,908
    Luke 15. 11 onwards God is love and scripture is more than clear that if we repent, we will be made clean. If we do not repent we are in grave trouble. Of course when we repent we still need to do penance for our sins, we can do it in this world or in Purgatory. So we still all have a penalty to pay, some more than others, so we can't do what we want. But whatever we do if we repent we will receive forgiveness...

    Luke 15.25
    Now his elder son was in the field, and when he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard music and dancing: And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant. And he said to him: Thy brother is come, and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe. And he was angry, and would not go in. His father therefore coming out began to entreat him. And he answering, said to his father: Behold, for so many years do I serve thee, and I have never transgressed thy commandment, and yet thou hast never given me a kid to make merry with my friends: But as soon as this thy son is come, who hath devoured his substance with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf. But he said to him: Son, thou art always with me, and all I have is thine. But it was fit that we should make merry and be glad, for this thy brother was dead and is come to life again; he was lost, and is found.
  • Padster
    Posts: 47
    Then we can expect Jeffrey Dahmer to enter Heaven.
  • TCJ
    Posts: 1,034
    It seems rather odd to be telling God who He may or may not forgive, to say the least.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,464
    There are several assumptions packed into "So we can expect", but we need not tarry on those.

    That said, were we blessed to be included among the blessed, our state of blessedness would make as all the more grateful for the plenitude of God's mercy and loving-kindness, even if it that plenitude included souls that had scandalized us in this mortal plane.
  • Padster
    Posts: 47
    Warped morality. I'm with the elder son. Clearly, youre with the younger one. It doesn't matter what crime he's committed, his dopey dad will not only forgive him, he'll put on a feast for him, something he never did for the eldest. Come in Jeffrey, and Adolf, and all those jailbirds who find Jesus in jail, come in you're welcome.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,464
    I am not "with". I am at most, perhaps, a sister of the two brothers, shall we say. That is, I don't figure in the parable, but I might have opinions about how that family works.... It's not for me to call Jesus warped, but it's clear Jesus' teachings scandalized many of his listeners then . . . and to this very day. There have always been people who have wanted to bowdlerize the scandalous from Jesus' preaching and exemplum.
  • St. Mary Magdalene, St. Dismas, St. MARY OF EGYPT!!!, St Augustine of Hippo, St Pelagia, Blessed Bartolo Longo...

    We are not saying it doesnt matter...like sin, do whatever you want and then trust God. However, if you truly repent of your sins, resolve not to fall into them again- could we really say, sorry there is no mercy for you?

    Maybe we can all spend some more time contemplating the crucifix. That might tells us more about Gods justice and mercy.
  • Found a picture of that crucifix I mentioned above. Here it says it was spain, not germany.
    581b18bac0078f3fdb97c6e411f34271.jpg
    736 x 920 - 107K
  • francis
    Posts: 11,175
    Yeow…

    @monasteryliturgist

    We cannot comprehend the mercy of God… it is a mystery… be it far from us to judge anyone… actions APART from a person we are responsible to weigh… right and wrong must always be made crystal clear. But we have no place judging anyone. Not one.
  • @francis totally agree. I think thats what most of us here have been trying to express.

    The Gospel is not easy to live, imitatio Christi is not easy either, but so worth every cent.
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen tomjaw francis
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,090
    [I've deleted a few comments that got heated, though everyone here has my sympathies. --admin]
This discussion has been closed.
All Discussions