My question is: priests and search committees, since it's clear you're not looking for good experience and training, what are you looking for? If experience and training doesn't matter, what are you looking for in job candidates who make it past the initial email?

Someone who is a self-starter but also a yes-man who knows their place. Someone who will do 5 times as much work as the last musician did, for the same salary. Someone who will start all kinds of new programs and also change nothing. Someone who is glad to announce that they live by the teachings of the Church in the bedroom, but is unaware of the teachings of the Church about just treatment of workers. Someone who’s a virtuosic organist but wants to play the piano 95% of the time. Someone who can raise choirs to the standard of Westminster Cathedral, but also doesn’t believe in rehearsal attendance, auditions, or other such non-pastoral things. Et cetera….

I'm showing that I'm a greenhorn, and I'm totally ok with it.

Since I was the one who posted, let me say: The times are changing and younger clerics are more clear and want better music. Salaries are significantly better (I know a fine job right now paying 90k). Know the documents, be prepared to demonstrate and or play and do not be afraid to pose questions. Know what you want to do and be able to say how you will get there. 80% of this work is working with the cleric and knowing him and how he works. The rest is easy ( not really) but its the clerical relationship that will or will not work that makes the difference. PM me for help. 42 years doing this stuff.. I know a few things.

I have found that most priests want to hire musicians they already know.
Job postings and searches are also often a formality. I’ve know of multiple places that did a national search and hired either their interim sub or a former music director.

Thank you all for the kind replies and advice. I feel a little better already and have some responses. I'll respond again after some sleep with some strategy notes, but here are my reflections in the meantime, keeping in mind that I don't want to just come and vent.

The musical techniques presented [at CMAA] are useful, but I think the personal contacts are even more important - especially for those who are seeking employment at various levels of musical-liturgical-educational institutions.

I'm down for it, as a recitalist/presenter/etc, or perhaps as attendee if I'm at an institution interested in sending me to one!

My generation doesn't place nearly enough emphasis on this interpersonal dimension of the field, and I'm guilty of it. I should really get out and play more recitals and present at some conferences!

The times are changing and younger clerics are more clear and want better music. Salaries are significantly better (I know a fine job right now paying 90k).

True that musical standards are improving due to CCgrassroots movements/amateurs trying to investigate things. However, professional standards are not. I've applied to a few of those Fr. Youngtrad jobs, and what we're seeing lately is unfortunately a lot of posturing: skill and experience still don't count for anything. Even the older priests are looking up things online and learning what to say to get applicants in the door!! I'm preaching to the choir, but it hurt to have to learn it the hard way. I wish someone told me earlier not to have any faith in the more modernized-looking job postings. I've failed several times already with the Youngtrads, even though that would be the exact demographic that would seem to be logical for me to target. Please let me know if I'm off on this and just unlucky.

(I use the Fr. Youngtrad meme in the most endearing and respectful way possible!! My gamer tag is FrYoungtrad.)

80% of this work is working with the cleric and knowing him and how he works.

Definitely a weakness of mine and many young people I know. At this point I am downright afraid of priests and get nervous whenever I talk to them, which is a problem. I would definitely appreciate more advice on that.

There is hope that the recently ordained [priests] and men in seminary will lead a liturgical restoration in parishes, but that's still far off. In the meantime, many parishes are liturgical zombieland.

See above - what you're describing looks on paper to be already happening, but it's all just posturing and does not indicate any change in the field from descriptions I hear of how it used to be.

You're going to get a lot of no's, especially with a DMA (same problem here). You're overqualified and cost too much for the smaller fish jobs and not experienced enough for the big fish jobs. There is an element of working your way up the ladder ("minimum X years experience in a catholic church"), at least in my experience.

Certainly feels like the prestige factor is a thing, though even at institutions where it seems that prestige should matter a lot (each of us could name a few off the top of our heads) pretty radical decisions are often made. I'm self-aware and have resigned myself to having to grind through a decade or so. Given the opportunity, I totally would, and I certainly have no illusions of enjoying my job. I've priced myself out of the market, as you say, and I need an appropriate and wise strategy.

I really appreciate all of you sharing your experience. On one hand, we're all kind of competing in the same job market, so giving a young person advice isn't to your advantage. But on the other, things could get better for everyone if we try to hive mind.

WELCOME TO THE JUNGLE....

I mean, nobody's giving management classes in seminary (not saying whether they should,) and nobody with music training is going to have a voice on a committee (it's a committee.)

You don’t necessarily need musical training, but understanding how things work is important. We got substantial amounts of input and the office coordinated sending follow-ups to our top candidates.

Absolutely come to the colloquium. Also, while the offerings vary each summer, the Catholic Institute of Sacred Music has offered a class in management of sacred music programs. It’s a really great thing.

Don’t give up.

I recall the gambler's fallacy: I've put so much into the pot, so I can't get away from the hand. I have a family to support. The mature and less risky thing to do might well be to leave the field if possible. And after prayer and discussion with family these past couple of days, it's looking more like that is in the cards.

And if it wasn’t on your radar, check this out: [link to the Fr. Gregerson job]

All sides were super enthusiastic about that, then they changed their mind out of the blue and I didn't even get an audition there. LOL. Anyway, I wonder if that salary is real.

Keep our options open, too. Odds are, you’ll be somewhere interim for a while as you get your sea legs and gain some true full-time ministry experience.

Fortunately, the top tier institutions are leaning more towards skill-based curricula and high-quality assistantship/mentorship programs rather than old-school, European-style conservatory grinding. From what I can discern, my generation of graduates from such institutions is the first to receive this kind of experience on a competitive lever while in college, and I'm sure it will take a while to reflect in the job market and younger people will have access to jobs they didn't before.

So. I guess I just audition at the easiest, most reliable place possible, get the job, and try to survive there. If I get lucky, great. Or, change fields.

I'm glad to have confirmation that certain ambitions of mine were misplaced. I'm also glad to know that winning this strange game depends on different skills than I thought I had to study. I'll be seeking further mentorship on the topic, whatever field I wind up in.

Absolutely come to the colloquium.

Hopefully I will be able to present/recitalize/attend/whatever at a CMAA conference someday! I'm a little bit of a greenhorn still, though! If I don't stay in music, I'd be the best bartender you could ask for!

I suffered this exact same issue last spring when I was finishing my MM. It was depressing. I applied to around 30 parishes or so, and only 4 of them cared enough to invite me in for a final round interview. The job I finally got is far from my ideal, BUT I have a pastor who actually understands good sacred music, so if I have to stay here for 2-3 years, I know he has my back.

Most of what I could say has already been said above, so my advice is this: don't become angry and bitter. Easier said than done, but it's extremely important. You cannot change the fact that, as @davido rightly observes, "that most priests want to hire musicians they already know," or other factors (including the very unfair ones) in the job search. It really is a case of having the right connection or being in the right place at the right time.

Congrats on your DMA. That's no small accomplishment! Don't be ashamed of it.

@ServiamScores I took a class my final semester of graduate school on "Music Career Development," and they beat the drum on social media repeatedly. They even taught us how to use audio and video editing software so we can make a high quality portfolio. Life savers.

Some of the more recent comments in this thread as well as my experiences, my colleagues' experiences, and the demographic trends in the church that will lead to parish contraction and mergers, are why I no longer encourage any young person to pursue or consider a career in lay parish church ministry. Not in music, not in catechesis, not in youth ministry.

I don't share that view unless asked, but if a young person expresses interest in working for the church as a layman as a career, I bluntly share the reality that you will probably not be able to find employment that will allow you to support yourself decently, much less support a family, and you will not have much job security.

I recommend that eager young people become skilled in a trade or educated to be able to land solid employment in the secular world, and then in their free time they can volunteer their services in a parish as a musician, catechist, or youth leader. Volunteering in a parish has many advantages.

Something that I found made an immense amount of difference in getting my application considered for jobs was simply including recordings of myself playing, of liturgies that I had directed or played, on an easy to use document with hyperlinks to them.

Ho ho ho. This is crucial. I know someone who at least tells you in his cover letter his specialty areas of organ literature for worship. Many do not. I have a comment somewhere here about how bad cover letters are. No information about what you actually do and if you inherited or built that is not good. It’s fine to not give all the details, but having only the most cursory idea of your current program suggests that you think that you are such a great musician that you can pick up a Liber and teach a gradual or responsory at sight (well, rather: my ideal would be to select a chant besides the Sunday Mass if you conduct that from a series sent to finalists who prepare each and teach one) to the choir. Which, maybe, but if you don’t do melismatic chants now, you need to be honest.

even QR codes so people could quickly scan a printed copy

QR codes are trivial to make and should be part of the toolbox of all church musicians. I am going to use one for a form for an event this year, for example.

Most parishes today have a church bulletin online. I would check the bulletin first before answering any email or applying for a position. If the parish weekly collection is between $800 and $2500, the likelyhood that you will receive a full salary with benefits is bleak. Even if the collection is $5K to $8K a week, the probability has increased that you can get a job with full time pay and benefits, but it's still unlikely.

However, another way to look at things is like this: small parishes, are a golden opportunity for a well trained and proficient organist, even if the pay isn't great. The reason being, the parish needs you, and you could set the course of music in that parish for the next fifty years, becoming the beloved organist by all the parishioners and establish your own legacy.

If I may add another thing: during interviews, read the room as best you can. Discretely observe the behavior of the person or people interviewing you. I'll share a bit from my experience at the end of graduate school.

One of the final round interviews I had was at a very small-town parish near Mennonite country. My organ/choir directing audition was quite good. Then came the interview: there were about 6 or 7 people, including the pastor, in the conference room. After some initial light questions, it turned into me being grilled on whether I would be able to adjust to a town like that after graduate school. Ultimately they hired their interim DOM. Since they paid my hotel room, bought me a drink after, and gave me a nice stipend for interviewing, it wasn't a total waste of time...now...

A first-round interview I had, via Zoom, wound up being just that, a waste. From the outset, the music director was distant and uninterested in what I had to offer, although the two lay members helping actually liked me, because they had a connection to my hometown. Then I was ghosted. Months later I discovered it went to a college graduate without a music degree, but "equivalent experience." (That can really sting when you've got an advanced degree.)

Don't get me started on a job where the hiring committee's sense of self-importance was enough to make me withdraw before even a first call.

I mention these experiences to express a major point: the sooner you pick up on red flags, the better it is for you. They can appear at any time.

Don't be afraid in an initial phone call or first-round interview, if you sense something isn't right, to end the call early and tell them you don't feel like the right fit. Likewise, if you're a finalist, and you experience that great unease, just say "no" if they offer you.

Don't sacrifice your autonomy.

Adding to the frustration is the general trend I see - that the search process starts after the incumbent has moved on. Most of the time the resume and materials are supposed to go to the priest, or the business manager. I always think, when I see that in a job listing, how on earth is a priest or business manager supposed to wade through resumes and youtube videos and separate the wheat from the chaff? The fact is, not all degrees or programs are created equal - nor are all performance experiences. Nor are all repertoire pieces, or improvisation skillsets. How is a non-musician supposed to know flash from skill, or look over a repertoire list and know whether it is fluff or serious repertoire (or repertoire that will be in any way useful liturgically), or watch a youtube of playing and conducting and judge it on musical or technical grounds?

Very few jobs, again except for major, established programs, will even bother to bring in a qualified musician to help them through the process. But the rabbit hole goes deeper, because how would the priest know which musicians in town are qualified to help him with the process? When I applied for my current job, the outgoing music director had already retired and was not involved. The only musician involved (and only at the resume review stage) was a conductor who was not Catholic or involved in church music in any way, and who was not an organist. At my interview I asked if they wanted me to play the organ - the rector and HR person said essentially "sure, if you want to, I guess," and came over to the loft with me.

All of which to say, since in most cases they leave musicians out of the selection and interview process, the priest/HR person/parish representatives have to focus on what they know. Essentially all they have to fall back on is personality and how they get along with the interviewee, and their gut about whether that person will "fit in". All of those are important considerations, but no, musical skill and credentials are typically not the main component of the process.

We have to play the game as it is, not as we'd like it to be.

searchfgold6789,
A ceasefire between priests and directors of music sure would be nice, but I'm totally getting out of the parish world and into the university teaching world now that the ink's dry on my DMA, so take everything I say with a grain of salt!
If your dream is really to get that unicorn church job, I would still work on the academic bona fides first (adjuncting, conference presentations, journals, etc.), because they give you options, and run-o-the-mill parish jobs second, because they don't and aren't all that impressive to the search committees you want to impress.

Best,
Ryan Kennedy (there's no anonymity online, so why bother)

Good vs bad hymnal - Check what book(s) they use. As has been mentioned, you may not want to intimate major changes off the bat, but you might ask them what their experiences with it are and gauge the reaction, or something like that. You want to know if they love their bad hymnal.

Practical vs excessive hiring process - Maybe there are too many stages, maybe the committee is too large, maybe it takes too long, maybe it's something else. I'm of the view that there shouldn't be more than 2-3 people interviewing you. More implies a wishy-washy environment. This is based on my experience though, which is not as a professional full-time musician.

I think I agree that an over-interested priest could be a bad sign of future micromanagement. There's a sweet spot. I think you want a priest who basically wants someone qualified to take these things off his hands and not plague him with questions, but who will do what he says when he needs it. I'm not sure I agree with phrasing it as communication though. Every boss is looking for good communication. Good doesn't mean a neverending stream of it. For context I send my priest every sung mass programme in advance (he never comments), check in with him before mass if I need to mention or clarify anything, and we meet face to face about once a month (probably more like every 6 weeks these days).

After reading through the comments, I strongly agree with those emphasizing the importance of showcasing your ability to produce results over leaning on your educational background. Also, I'd just like to note that I say all of this with sincere respect and admiration for someone like yourself who completes such an advanced degree in music. Bravo!

Here’s my own path for reference: I’m a Gen Z college student studying Classics and Politics. I also serve as the music director at a large, historic parish, where I lead over 50 choral and instrumental volunteers alongside a staff of professional singers. We celebrate reverent liturgy, use a chant- and hymn-based subscription missal, regularly sing choral ordinaries, and incorporate brass or strings for major liturgies—especially those for the religious order that runs the parish.

I’m not a particularly advanced organist: I can accompany chant and hymns well, and I improvise effectively in a range of styles, but I have limited ability in formal organ literature. Still, I replaced someone with a DMA—and parishioners consistently tell me the music is now more beautiful, more cohesive, and more prayerful.

When applying, I leaned into my real-world experience: directing at a small parish, singing professionally in liturgical settings, teaching music, understanding Church documents, and most importantly, loving the liturgy as a practicing Catholic. I also expressed a sincere desire to make the parish my spiritual home.

A week into the interview process, they asked me to organize and conduct Fauré’s Requiem for a funeral Mass, using my own musical contacts—on just 1.5 weeks' notice. It went wonderfully. That demonstrated what matters most: a down-to-earth ability to deliver the goods without pretense or complication.

In your applications, include hyperlinks to recordings—choirs you've conducted, compositions you've used, liturgies you’ve prepared. If you've been immersed in liturgical music for most of your life, say so. Let your vision be known. Show passion. Don’t rely on degrees to make your case. I’ve had poor experiences hiring singers and instrumentalists based solely on credentials. Many pastors have too.

Don’t sell yourself as someone who can play liturgically themed Guilmant every Sunday. Your pitch instead should essentially say: “I want to lead this community in beautifully crafted, spiritually rooted musical prayer, and I can prove that I can to it.” That’s what a pastor needs to know.

In my case, not having a music degree actually oddly helped. I make a competitive salary, and I receive more contract offers than I can realistically accept while in school. Most of my paid singers are the same—passionate, trained through lived liturgical experience, and deeply capable. They can sight-read Palestrina because they were raised in a rich musical and spiritual environment—not because they have a conservatory diploma.

Sell your ability and passional to anyone willing to buy it. The experience from your education can make you a far better director, but it doesn't mean much to a hiring committee at a mid-sized suburban parish looking for a music director.

.

Unfortunately, you're going to have to be willing to take lots of direction and work some unpaid extra hours, at least at the start.

Since last replying to this thread, I had already taken a job that seemed great, but then they tried to scam me out of wedding and funeral pay. I left with 24h notice. That's two jobs down in a little over a year. Professional standards are just too low, and it might be too unreliable to try to raise a family this way.

Permit me to crawl out from my rock to ask: did you not negotiate things such as funeral or wedding pay before you took the job? Surely you know that all these things must be worked out before you sign on the dotted line. All things, from pay to insurance to wedding and funeral pay, additional educational opportunities HAVE TO be negotiated before one starts to work. The reason why is simple. Everyone knows how things work. Once you are in the job and things like this are not worked out, then X can say, " Sorry but this is not the way we do things" or "you don't know but we don't pay you for ----" ( insert wedding or funeral). Please, use some common business sense and work these things out before you start working. Much heartbreak can be avoided. 41 years of working in the Church.......

I find it fascinating when priests try to wrench this little bit of extra income away. The irony is that most job posts try and tempt you into an artificially low salary specifically by advertising that there are X number of funerals and weddings each year which allow you to have a quasi-guaranteed method of obtaining extra income. It is so standard to receive pay for these special events, and the umpteen monthly job posts on this very forum bear that fact out.

To be clear: I'm not at all against negotiating a salary where you then agree not to take a fee for those events, provided they don't exceed X number in a month or something. But it's not right for priests to deny the right to industry standard fees unless previously negotiated. Worse still: when a new priest comes in and cuts off the fees after you've been paid them for years. I've seen that happen before too.

I do a little weeding for free sometimes, usually while chatting outside after Mass.

I didn't mind playing a bunch of free weddings a year.

Weeding corrected to wedding. Apologies.

how fast news flies in the clerical-collar-wearing world

You might be getting me confused with someone else, because my leaving was not a particularly significant event for the Pastor or Diocese. However, you seem to be sure. Either way, thanks for your condolences. Because this was going to be a strictly long-term post, I was already preparing an escape hatch and logistical plan at each turn of the conversation for weeks in advance to ensure the best setup for success years in the future, and made sure to have expenses saved up in case I was forced to leave.

Which leads me to say, kevinf, maybe I'm being sensitive about what was a painful situation for a time, but I detect some victim-blaming and assumptions about what happened to me in your particular response. "Negotiating" on third-party work would be a little strange, though maybe worth a mention post-interview. If it would need to be mentioned, that would be a red flag.

It's been suggested to me to look outside Rome if I want any kind of stability/life meaning/time off for family, etc. That might be a main conclusion of this whole thread.

Please accept this diatribe in the spirit in which it's offered. Anger.

I am INCREDIBLY thankful my last boss showed his hand so early! I don't know about you, but anger psychologically handcuffs me more than just about anything else, so I try to focus on better things in the future.

Which leads me to say, kevinf, maybe I'm being sensitive about what was a painful situation for a time, but I detect some victim-blaming and assumptions about what happened to me in your particular response. "Negotiating" on third-party work would be a little strange, though maybe worth a mention post-interview. If it would need to be mentioned, that would be a red flag.


i do not celebrate in any way your loss. It is real. But when I failed to negotiate a part of my contract when I was 35, the Church proceeded to come back later and say "Oh no, we cannot pay you for funerals." Needless to say, I walked away because funerals were prolific and should have been paid separately.

You might see it as victim-blaming (a word I had never heard of until the last few years), but I just call it personal responsability. I agree, its a hard lesson to learn. But I posted my response to hopefully teach you that you have to speak up. Clergy do not read minds and they are not always aware of the business end of our work. Rare is the one that does ( my present Pastor is profoundly cognizant. How glorious!)