Congregations which have learned pieces incorrectly?

trentonjconn

Just out of curiosity, have any of you dealt with congregations which have learned various antiphons or hymns incorrectly, and solidified said errors through repetition without correction over the span of years? How does one correct such things, apart from the obvious firm organ accompaniment and a strong choir to model it?

My congregation, for example, are strong singers. The strong singers, however, largely belong to a group which prays the hours together throughout the week in their homes, and this group has learned segments of the "Ave Regina Caelorum" (among other frequent chants) incorrectly. This results in an odd clash between the choir singing the antiphon confidently and correctly, and a large subset of the people singing it confidently and INCORRECTLY.

I ask mostly out of curiosity as opposed to out of genuine distress. At the end of the day, I'm quite happy to have a singing congregation. Has anyone dealt with an OVERconfident congregation before? Anecdotes welcome. Blessed Lent!

Gamba

Can you share, more specifically, what you mean by “incorrectly”? Say in the simple Ave Regina caelorum, if the mistake is on the order of turning each quarter bar into a full stop and giant deep breath, I’d be inwardly sad but let it go. But if all the flats are being sung as naturals, I’d be rather more concerned…..

wspinnen

At my first parish job, the 10:00 crowd (N.O. Latin/English) had been singing the Our Father in Latin for years. When they sang, each word and phrase was labored and segmented: for example, each time the congregation got to the phrase, "Panem nostrum quotidianum," they'd sing it as, "Panem nostrum......QUO-TI-DI-AAAAA-NUM....."

trentonjconn

Gamba, they sing the phrase "super omnes speciosa" with incorrect intervals. I couldn't tell you exactly what it is as I'm always singing and directing the choir when it happens, but it is a matter of incorrect pitches for certain.

Wspinnen yes we have the drawn-out-chant problem too, hah.

MatthewRoth

I would talk to your pastor and get his support. You have six more weeks of this. This is bordering on intolerable, and I don’t quite think that pastors know that while music need not run through the DM for every last thing, you obviously need to teach chant correctly, above all things that people will sing at Mass with other people. Also, a group of people doing something that makes for a good community needs to be supervised (it’s literally the pastor’s job, but I know that there are social spillover effects for good and sometimes especially for ill).

Our organist doesn’t play too fast imho and neither does the other one in town whom I’ve met. But the latter pushed even my limit, which was sort of incredible, because I’ve disturbed (a bit, it’s also not that serious ha) my schola wishing to push the pace.

davido

Previous music director re-wrote the great Amen on a common, diocesan wide setting. Fine at our parish, but Made for a problem when we visited other parishes/diocesan liturgies. Hung with it for a couple years till I could retire the mass setting.

Liam

Is it possible to create a hand-out in modern notation that ... clarifies without a line break in the middle of the phrase ... how the phrase in question is to be sung? You could even explain this is intended to unite congregation and choral singing more effectively given that some people may have learned to sing the melody differently.

Personally, I think the organ is useless correct a congregation; it merely magnifies the conflict. (The thing that comes to my mind are organists who appeared to use the organ to override the passing tones that are widely customary (going back to the 19th century, fwiw) American way of singing Holy God We Praise Thy Name - organists never won that battle.)

OMagnumMysterium

Our people had the habit of singing Tantum Ergo to ST THOMAS at about 1/2 the pace it reasonably should have gone (with extra fermatas and rests thrown in too). That was a very long ingrained habit, at least going back to when I made my first Communion, possibly they were singing it very slowly before I was even born...

Last year, after Vespers of Christ the King, our pastor accidentally intoned the chant Tantum Ergo instead (which we had used for the procession that morning), and since it didn't go at as painfully slow of a pace, that's what we have used every Sunday since.

The still sing O Salutaris to DUGUET at a slower than ideal pace, with extra fermata not notated, but this currently tolerable.

MatthewRoth

As I mentioned, our organist is pretty firm in what she wants, and while she doesn't necessarily win, DUGUET has an accidental not present in every edition on the first syllable of "hostium", "Holy God" is sung without a repetition and played, and sung by the musicians (myself, when we have Benediction but the organist isn't available) without the passing tones. The congregation still sings them and it works out. I find this to be less distracting as I'm such a fan of the original German practice that I can handle the organ playing a completely different harmonization than what is being sung. So what's the big deal with a discrepancy of a few notes being sung?

But seriously, I'm working on some things right now (for Benediction and the associated rites specifically), and while there are weak spots in congregational singing, it's just extraordinary to see what a congregation is capable of doing. Not necessarily over time, although you can't entirely shortcut that, but effort. Put out sheets in square notation.* Put out DUGUET or ST THOMAS or whatever in your preferred key and with your preferred rhythm. Someone will catch on. It's a heck of a lot of work. I'm not going to dismiss that out of hand, but it's worth it. It's helpful to have sessions, and I think that the novelty of a workshop with a respected outside church musician (monk, cleric, what have you) every year to two years helps. The same person can be ignored internally, but an external person can give some extra motivation.

*listen, if I didn't need translations, and if I didn't need metrical hymns or our special prayers, I'd stick to Cantus Selecti…but it's easier to whip up a sheet with page references than to also have to print our special prayers week in and week out.

RMSawicki

Just my two 2¢ on this issue.

I am still shocked how many otherwise orthodox and TLM-inclined Catholics who, despite innumerable gentle corrections from me, STILL sing, at Benediction, "Laus et *JOO* be laht-see oh". (Oy!)

Gaudete in Domino Semper!

Andrew_Malton

It seems to me that Tantum ergo has 878787 meter but ST THOMAS has 6686. How do you do that, even when very slowly?

OMagnumMysterium · Screenshot 2025-03-06 132815.png

Like this. The dotted notes are half notes in the music (if memory serves) and the horizontal episemas are fermatas added by our congregation according to oral tradition. This is not a score that I have given them to sing from, they just sing from memory.

OMagnumMysterium

Ah, checking hymnary now I see there are two different tunes named "ST THOMAS", one "Williams" and one "Wade".

Andrew_Malton

There are! Silly me! I forgot the name of the usual and familiar tune (Wade’s) and just looked ST THOMAS by name.

MatthewRoth

It’s not really Gregorian but the version called cantus modernus from Solesmes (ICRSP score) is great. They use it on major feasts at the seminary apparently, whereas we use it on Sundays as a nod to its origin which we use on weekdays per annum (including feasts); I have not yet been able to collate things which would allow us to change to our feast day melodies when adoration occurs on the eve of a feast (the trouble is that we have different prayers for Thursdays and Sundays). But hopefully we can do that soon. Several other parishes only use the usual Corpus Christi melody (for O Salutaris, it’s DUGUET or WERNER, and usually in Latin) so that isn’t a stumbling block.

One mistake though in the mode III chant is at Veneremur; they skip the podatus. Some folks also don’t quite understand the mora vocis in the Amen is on both notes. Source and Summit made weird choices and then people learn by ear. It’s not a great combo, as much as I think that people should do chant. (Some DMs need to go to a colloquium or suitable workshop, I think…)

Liam

I always associate ST THOMAS (Williams) with the metrical English paraphrase of Ps 103, O Bless The Lord My Soul. I have a fondness for Short Meter, and that texts in that meter are often deeply satisfying. It's a tough meter in which to pen well, because it requires compression and distillation of thought - loosened ever so slightly for the third line before going back to discipline, as it were.

Richard Mix

GROSSER GOTT may be a lost cause, though a deceptive cadence will remove any doubt about the repeat at least. CCH has the version of LORDES prevalent on the wrong side of the Gulf of Mexico and our congregation will follow the organ, while still doing unspeakable things to the rhythm at unaccompanied weekday Masses. I can report a success story with the Snow Our Father: by having the choir ready to jump in promptly enough at "For the kingdom" we changed so-la-do to the written la-la-do. Don't ask me about GREENSLEEVES.

Roborgelmeister

DUGUET can be found in Gregorian notation, FWIW.

Greensleeves: raised sixth? No thanks.

Vermulst, Lamb of God, People's Mass, the 3/4 measure before "have mercy" were invariably sung as 4/4. I didn't fight it. Incidentally, the "Holy" from that mass setting was the one and only one sung every Sunday for the 11 years I toughed it out. At least it's worthy music.
I inherited a "composite" mass setting; the congregation was so small that I never taught any service music, except one new Memorial Acclamation they had been singing, incorrectly, one from the "Music from Marylhurst" items that birthed OCP. It took three months before they were confident with the new music. I concentrated on teaching hymns, and the repertoire was increased... but a substitute priest balked at "O God Our Help in Ages Past,"... Him: I've never sung it before... Me: the people know it -- it will be a new experience for you, and by the way Faaaaaather, the pastor has confidence in my abilities, so please extend the same courtesy.
"O God Almighty Father," had dotted rhythms everywhere on the refrain, which is probably the way the guitarist I succeeded had "performed" it. Reports were that no one could sing with him.

CatholicZ09

Speaking of Vermulst’s People’s Mass, any parish that I’ve heard the Sanctus from that setting sung always ends up with half the congregation singing “God of power and might” and the other half “Lord God of hosts.” Any other revised Mass setting doesn’t have this problem with the congregation, but at that phrase in People’s, half the congregation reverts back to the old translation.

There are a few hymns we use often that were sung incorrectly under the old music director at my parish. He would play some 3/4 hymns in 4/4. When his successor took over, she would just play it the right way. I don’t think there were ever any complaints.

irishtenor

a substitute priest balked at "O God Our Help in Ages Past,"

That's okay. You can just listen to that one.

Liam

Btw, out of pure curiosity, what is the often (?) missing accidental in DUGUET? The oldest edition at Hymnary is the 1906 English Hymnal:

https://hymnary.org/page/fetch/EH1906/465/high

MatthewRoth

That natural! It’s omitted (and someone even brought me a copy without it!) and it’s certainly not always internalized, because it goes about 50-50 here if the organist is late or absent.

Now maybe this omission is due to a mistake and is a weird local thing otherwise given that the diocese is small (but thriving) with relatively few cradles born and raised here who stay here and a mix of converts both from here and elsewhere and cradles from elsewhere.

But I am pretty sure that we always used DUGUET as a child (okay, adolescent; I didn’t go to adoration as a small child) and young adult because I barely recognize WERNER, so the natural was a bit of a shock to me when I arrived in my present parish.

francis

alf the congregation singing “God of power and might” and the other half “Lord God of hosts.”

Oh my gosh. When the new Missal came out in 2011, I felt justified in my long-term habit of abandoning composing music in English for the mass. The beauty of Latin: it’s a dead language, unchanging, and universal. Let’s all get back with the program.

I have an orchestral setting of the Sanctus which is now abrogated. Heartbreaking. One of the subtle tenets of modernism is to always keep us off balance, fragmented, and confused. Tradition is like an anchor in a fierce storm, and establishes security, focus and a sure footed path.

SponsaChristi

I’m dealing with the opposite problem. The choir sings the Preface dialogues incorrectly. I’m not sure if the MD is intentionally doing some sort of cantus ad libitum mixing up the various preface tones from the EF and the ICEL chant, or if the MD just doesn’t know they’re singing them incorrectly (I’m the only one in the congregation who would know that). He usually likes to do things correctly, as do I, so I don’t know what to sing.

trentonjconn

That's very odd, to be sure.

Chant_Supremacist

Depends on the gravity of the mistake, but with just a wrong note or two there's a good chance I would just say I guess we've got a local tradition and instruct the choir and organist to do it the way the congregation is accustomed to.

Xopheros

@francis

When the new Missal came out in 2011, I felt justified in my long-term habit of abandoning composing music in English for the mass. The beauty of Latin: it’s a dead language, unchanging, and universal.

Not entirely: The Vatican is constantly working on the "Lexicon recentis Latinitatis". But apart from necessary additions to keep the language usable for official church documents, the Latin texts used during mass are also subject to changes. This affects especially the most important text among all, the bible translation. This leads to the situation that the chants in the Graduale Triplex (based on the Clementine Vulgata or other old translations) are not even the offically approved bible text, which is the Nova Vulgata.

In cases of the texts most frequently set to music, especially the Magnificat, the Nova Vulgata fixes the errors in the old Vulgata in such a way that the number of syllables is unchanged, e.g. the inaccurate "in Deo salutari meo" was changed to " in Deo salvatore meo". For all the propers set to music in medieval times, however, you are stuck with the wrong (or: not approved) text which cannot be easily exchanged without recomposing some sections. Not that many people will even notice, but the underlying problem is not solved by using an extinct language.

Andrew_Malton

Non sunt loquelæ neque sermones

MatthewRoth

Depends on the gravity of the mistake, but with just a wrong note or two there's a good chance I would just say I guess we've got a local tradition and instruct the choir and organist to do it the way the congregation is accustomed to.

It depends on what it is but we decided that for the sake of visiting priests and for other churches when our people are visiting, we would sing correctly. I have to remember to fix this with Ite XI as our pastor understandably sings the notes if the I-te division was the same as for the other Ite melodies, and the congregation parrots this. This example won’t bug a priest, but it’d be disruptive elsewhere.

I can’t help things like whether one adds a dot in -pe of “suscipe” in Gloria XI (we don’t) but to me singing the notes on the same syllable is a different question.

a_f_hawkins

chants in the Graduale Triplex (based on teh Clementine Vulgata or other old translations)

The antiphons use a much older edition than the Clementine, one probably predating St Jerome, or some speculate a previous version by Jerome. But chants sung to psalm tones use the Nova Vulgata, I think.
-
cf Ps 41 Sicut cervus desiderat at the Paschal Vigil, but Quemadmodum desiderat cervus in the procession to the cemetery.

francis

@xopheros

Could you please list all changes to the Latin propers since say, the 1500s? Thanks!

Which propers in my collection of LUs from the 1900s would be abrogated?

MatthewRoth

In cases of the texts most frequently set to music, especially the Magnificat, the Nova Vulgata fixes the errors in the old Vulgata in such a way that the number of syllables is unchanged, e.g. the inaccurate "in Deo salutari meo" was changed to " in Deo salvatore meo". For all the propers set to music in medieval times, however, you are stuck with the wrong (or: not approved) text which cannot be easily exchanged without recomposing some sections. Not that many people will even notice, but the underlying problem is not solved by using an extinct language

This is just outrageous and frankly borders on being against what we do here. Errors in the Vulgate, as if the NV also doesn’t make choices which are questionable. As if we should leave uninterrogated the assumption that changing something with a four-hundred plus year pedigree (longer, in the case of the Gospel canticles) was the right and necessary thing to do, even for liturgical use, in addition to general dissemination as the “official” Latin edition. And why not go with a text derived the Weber-Grayson critical edition instead of the NV while we’re at it?

By the way your post is majorly uniformed. The official edition of the chant remains the Vatican Edition, officially rearranged to fit the new Mass, but the Solesmes edition is also permitted, although for the office, they run into trouble having taken so long to come up with a new list of antiphons that Solesmes beat them to the punch with an actual book and was in the middle of work on the next volume when the revised list came out, which is obviously very dumb. There is no reason to do that if you don’t want to publish a book yourself.

Anyway, one can and should use the text of the propers as handed down to us. Westminster Cathedral retains the Gallican psalter for its office, in addition to the official permission to retain this for the gospel canticles. “Duh” feels a little beneath me, but I cannot add anything more substantial. Why would you do otherwise?

I say much the same for trying to unseat the melodies of the Vatican Edition, even if those are on less sure footing.

Xopheros

@a_f_hawkins Out of curiosity, I have just checked a random Magnificat antiphon in the "Antiphonale Monasticum" from 2005 ("Accipite Spiritum Sanctum", p.309) and can confirm your conjecture. The antiphons use the older text set to music, whereas , e.g., the Magnificat sung to a psalm tone is given on p. 469 in the Nova Vulgata translation.

@MatthewRoth Sorry for being unclear. I see nothing wrong in using the old texts set to music and definitely do not advocate changing the music to match a different translation. I am not a bible scholar, but acknowledge that scholarship has moved forward since Jerome's days. The vernacular translations used in the Catholic Church meanwhile all (most?) reflect the current state of biblical scholarship, and it was thus reasonable, in my opinion, to apply this to the Nova Vulgata, too.

MatthewRoth

The vernacular translations used in the Catholic Church meanwhile all (most?) reflect the current state of biblical scholarship, and it was thus reasonable, in my opinion, to apply this to the Nova Vulgata, too.

No, they don’t, not in a way that actually makes any sense, because the Vulgate text is not included in full, even in brackets or whatever. The RSV 2CE editors claim that so long as you have Sirach etc. you can put in whatever you want. I do not agree that this respects the canons of Trent, and it means that we are going on generations without a truly Catholic Bible.

Biblical scholarship run by Protestants and atheists is not biblical scholarship — not without a heavy corrective dose from the Fathers and what we actually accept without the insidious interference of rationalism. For example, Scott Hahn still reads Protestant and for that matter Jewish scholars. But he is largely quite conservative. John Bergsma even more so.

The NV makes choices too. They are not necessarily better than those of the Vulgate, and again, why a new Vulgate instead of a usable Bible and then a lectionary? Which we don’t have! Why are the biblical readings taken from bibles, not a Latin lectionary? This is so obviously stupid and disastrous that I feel like I’m explaining something which shouldn’t have to be said.

Honestly it makes me yearn for total, utter institutional collapse. This is the only way to go back to what was and what ought to be.

francis

Anyway, I was being charitable in asking my questions to you @xopheros and giving you a chance to prove your assertion.

The N.O., in my take, is not a stable translation, and the 2011 changed the language of at least a couple of the ordinary texts (Gloria, Sanctus). I will continue to stick with the Latin, thank you.

a_f_hawkins

francis - the Gloria, Sanctus, and a lot else were changed in 2011 because the original translations into English were inaccurate. They were only ever a preliminary translation and should have been changed decades ago, ICEL did try but the bishops dislike change. Indeed stability is a valuable feature in liturgical texts.

francis

@a_f_hawkins

Yes, I know... and ALL of my original compositions of the ordinary (English settings) are now defunct, including an orchestral Mass Sanctus. Wow. God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Please leave His stuff alone.

Ummm... the Bishops dislike change? They sure go for novelty!

SponsaChristi

ALL of my original compositions of the ordinary (English settings) are now defunct,

If only there were a universal language in the Church that didn’t change for centuries.

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