Non-Christian Music Directors Now Approved for the Catholic Church
  • Heather
    Posts: 2
    Evidently, Bishop Steven Lopes, head of the Committee for Divine Worship, has approved and is backing a hire done by his Vicar General for a parish in the Ordinariate. A Catholic music director was let go, and a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints was hired. The bishop and vicar general state they have reviewed Church documents, and there is no problem.
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 462
    It’s sad that this actually has to be a thing.
    Thanked by 1ServiamScores
  • RMSawicki
    Posts: 128
    In my 40-plus years of experience in Catholic Church music and related disciplines I have been forced, many times, to explain the often uncomfortable truth that simply being a Catholic and being able to provide a quality Catholic music program are not necessarily automatically inclusive. Many of the best parish music programs I've encountered have been in parishes with non-Catholic musical leadership. One parish I recall, in particular, got rid of their "Catholic" music director who was all hippie-dippie OCP Marty Haugen/St. Louis Jesuits and replaced said individual with a Scots Presbyterian who promptly instituted Gregorian Chant Mass ordinaries, traditional High English hymnody, genuine organ repertoire for postludes and formed a fine volunteer liturgical choir. If we understand the vital importance of correct and proper Catholic liturgical music at Mass for its catechetical and evangelistic value, we sometimes have to choose to hire the people who are actually qualified to "produce the product" and get the job done, regardless of whether or not they're factually a "member of the tribe".

    Gaudete in Domino Semper!
    Thanked by 8GerardH CHGiffen IanW DavidOLGC Richard Mix tomjaw Brian Michael Page mattebery
  • TimTheEnchanterTimTheEnchanter
    Posts: 212
    I am not a fan of fireballing posts with a lot of missing context.
    Thanked by 5GerardH Liam IanW LauraKaz JacobFlaherty
  • vansensei
    Posts: 227
    His undergraduate degree is from BYU. You should want a choral conductor and music director with BYU training; they are one of the best choral programs in the nation.
    Thanked by 1cesarfranck
  • francis
    Posts: 10,912
    "produce the product"

    And this, my friends, is proof that the church is truly in eclipse. 2 Corinthians 11? God does not want a product. He wants heart and soul.
    Thanked by 3DavidOLGC hilluminar tomjaw
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,123
    A Catholic music director was let go,

    So why? The Ordinariate stems from a tradition that takes music more seriously than most Catholics do. Clearly, the incumbent was not doing the job desired, but how that was lacking, I have no idea. This seems like an invitation to rash judgement.

    I was once a non-Catholic (non-Christian, even) singing in Catholic Churches. It's on my group's website that we welcome non-Catholic singers, as long as they "play well with others" and treat the liturgy with respect, and we hope and pray that they eventually convert. Yes, I support a preferential option for Catholic musicians; we shouldn't have to ornament the liturgy of heretics just to make a living. I don't know where the position was posted (was it here?), but I'd presume that an attempt was made to get it in front of Catholic eyes.
    Thanked by 3LauraKaz JacobFlaherty cesarfranck
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,954
    For the record, Bp. Lopes is the former chairman of the USCCB Committee for Divine Worship.
  • Heather
    Posts: 2
    Just checked the website:

    Committee on Divine Worship

    Most Rev. Steven J. Lopes
    Bishop of the Chair of Saint Peter
    Committee Chairman
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,590
    All things being equal applies to basically everything which I’m going to say.

    There aren’t many places to talk about this stuff. I am not welcome in what I count as one place (or rather a network of places). At least our webmaster and admin has the courtesy to put his name behind blocks, bans, etc. (I thought that I’d never have to mention that again, but oh well.)

    This is the most established, easy to find place. It has a very established culture too for better or worse.

    Catholics should be privileged over non-Catholics particularly if the Catholic is the incumbent. Non-Catholics should be hired with caution if ever. Non-Christians should never be hired except in emergency situations or where they are only used for a special function (let’s say that you do a mass with organ that’s too much for your regular organist; basically the same situation in which you’d hire outside musicians where you know that it isn’t a longstanding thing). When you hire staff singers who are often not Catholic, you have to be heavy-handed up front. Dura lex sed lex. And stick to it.

    I believe that the principles laid out by the previous Roman pontiffs should be followed. How can the choirmaster fulfill this role if he or she is not Catholic? Call me naive. Fine. That doesn’t especially stick. Our pastor will not hire a non-Catholic or a Catholic sufficiently impeachable for his or her personal life that it would cause scandal (and my pastor is not even the most impressionable in terms of what constitutes scandal, but he knows that the fox inside the hen house of his parish is bad!). We have Vespers and Tenebrae. A non-Catholic woman would not be able to join the chant from the sanctuary when we sing from there, but neither would a non-Catholic man, despite being able to fit in with the Catholic men.

    I wasn’t going to comment since I felt that this was perhaps in poor taste but posted as an understandable reaction, and given the above, well, we normally don’t publicly post in order to name and shame, but that’s because of canon 220 and civil defamation laws among other things. I don’t think that it is expressly banned. If it’s true and people should know, that covers both canon and civil law, and there are some egregious cases where such is probably appropriate.

    Right, Lopes serves until the end of the conference’s fall session. He is still chairman until the bishops meet in November.
    Thanked by 3ServiamScores DavidOLGC LauraKaz
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,954
    Oh, thank you both for the correction: the new one got elected, etc.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,954
    It's sad to lose a job, whatever is behind the change. I lost a job once for no stated reason and was notified by e-mail. It was not a big loss, considering their musical choices.
  • RMSawicki
    Posts: 128
    francis

    Since I do not wish to be associated with the "eclipse" of the Church, I must reply.

    When I said "produce the product", I was being somewhat pedestrian in my syntax and I think you know what I meant, but just in case not, allow me to re-phrase:

    "...produce beautiful, sublime, and truly Catholic music for our worship in the Sacred Liturgy as our corporate offering before the Throne of Divine Grace".

    Is that better?

    Gaudete in Domino Semper!
    Thanked by 1IanW
  • francis
    Posts: 10,912
    @RMSawicki

    it is just the state of things with those who 'throw up moons', I suppose. @MatthewRoth explains the sentiment in a better way than I could express it.
    How can the choirmaster fulfill this role if he or she is not Catholic?

    It's one thing to 'hire' musicians on a contractual basis, it's entirely another matter to hire someone as the DoM.
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 462
    clearly, the incumbent was not doing the job desired


    Or was living a life contrary to the Catholic Faith and was causing scandal.
    Thanked by 1JacobFlaherty
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,954
    Please do not speculate or theorize about the reason for the dismissal.

    Sometimes people are dismissed from music jobs without any defect on their part.
    Thanked by 10MatthewRoth CHGiffen francis Liam StimsonInRehab wspinnen IanW ServiamScores tomjaw JacobFlaherty
  • GambaGamba
    Posts: 567
    I am not the only ex-Protestant organist/choirmaster on this board who converted because of working in places where the duties of the job required me to learn the texts of the liturgy backwards and forwards, conduct the chant multiple times a week while teaching volunteers to sing and love it, and submit my own musical impulses to the wisdom and guidance of Mother Church. Working closely with holy priests and playing a musical part in countless Masses, though I could not participate sacramentally, drew me in, and the Lord changed my heart.

    We all get jobs because those hiring us think that we can do it better than the other applicants. The choice is sometimes between
    1) a Catholic pianist who only knows Respond and Acclaim and can’t conduct Stainer “God so loved the world” or pronounce Latin, and
    2) a Protestant organist who wrote her doctoral thesis on Palestrina and Trent and has been conducting the chant down at the Anglo-Catholic place for 20 years.


    If Father wants good music according to the mind of the church, who is he supposed to hire?
    Thanked by 9hilluminar CHGiffen Liam DavidOLGC wspinnen RMSawicki LauraKaz IanW monasteryliturgist
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,418
    I was hired many years ago back in the late sixties because I was Anglican at the time and the pastor wanted someone who knew music in English masses. It was one of the most beautiful periods of my life. The pastor and I learned much from each other. (We had a solemn high mass in English every week!)

    I hoped for many years that there would come a day in which there would be a rapprochement between Canterbury and Rome sometime in the future. Well, that didn't and won't happen, hut we got the Ordinariate.
    Thanked by 4IanW CHGiffen StimsonInRehab LauraKaz
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,813
    N.B. If you have sung or listened to the music of Hans Leo Hassler 1564? – 8 June 1612, it may be worthwhile looking up as to his denomination!
    Thanked by 5M. Jackson Osborn IanW CHGiffen StimsonInRehab CharlesW
  • AnimaVocis
    Posts: 164
    I have no reason for sharing this other than anecdotal evidence that hiring a Non-Catholic for a role in a Catholic Parish is not always a bad thing. (However, I fully admit and realize that my experience was the exception, not the rule...)

    2020, I was an Missouri Synod Lutheran (and the son of a LCMS pastor, no less). In my move to attend the university of Kansas for Grad school in the fall, I applied for the position at the local Newman Center (St. Lawrence). The position that was open at the time was just for the principal organist, not the Director of Sacred Music, and I was hired by the Chaplain and the DoSM. I know for a fact that I was chosen over 1 faithful Catholic Student Organist, but I don't know how many were in the pool exactly. In my application letter, I very specifically spelled out the fact that, while I wasn't Catholic (at the time), I wanted to learn, to be a part of the Catholic liturgical world. (At the time, I was doing some major research into the historical Lutheran Liturgy {pre-Bach} and was trying to push some pastors I knew into adopting a historical Lutheran praxis, which was far more "Catholic" in form and substance, including even great amounts of Gregorian chant and polyphony as opposed to the reformed anglicanism that all Lutherans claim as their "historic/traditional Liturgy" today. I digress...

    After a few political things happened that led to the Director being dismissed from his position (just after Christmas), and I was asked if I would be interested in being the Interim DoSM. I gladly accepted. As the director, I made it quite clear to the town/gown choir (mostly students) that I didn't want to just rehearse, but I wanted to help them recover and understand their liturgical heritage that had all but seemed abandoned.

    Our rehearsals were mostly what you would expect. That said, I would often talk about and have mini catechesis sessions toward the end of the rehearsal. Sometimes people would leave if it went too long... Often they stayed.

    Desiring to teach these Catholic students about their Liturgy (VO and NO), and the fact that I was completely out of my element meant that I had to spend so much time in research, study, and prayer.... Was it arrogant or foolish to be a Non-Catholic trying to teach these students about their Liturgy, and even their faith? I would probably argue "yes." But by the time I left, even though it would be a couple years before I would make my public confession of faith and receive my sacraments, I wouldn't have had it any other way.

    That said, I have a soft spot for non-catholics in the Catholic environment, but again - the exception. Not the rule.

    Thanks for hearing (reading) my testimony!

    TL;DR: I wasn't Catholic, but Missouri Synod Lutheran I was hired at a Catholic Newman Center. Before I knew it I was knee-deep in the Tiber (on the Roman side)!

    God bless you as we make our final preparations of Body, Mind, Heart, and Soul for Holy Lent!

    Nicholas
    Thanked by 11CharlesW irishtenor tandrews CHGiffen DavidOLGC Jeffrey Quick M. Jackson Osborn oldhymns kevinf LauraKaz mattebery
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,202
    The original point was a non-Christian having a leadership role in a Catholic parish, but the examples are of Christians having such a role, when they are not Catholics.
    Thanked by 2AnimaVocis MatthewRoth
  • AnimaVocis
    Posts: 164
    Andrew,

    I read that at first! But I obviously forgot between the. And when I offered my note.

    Non Christian is a no-no. Non Catholic is a case by case basis at best.
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,123
    Anima, I was cradle LCMS too, and appreciate your comments on the state of Lutheran liturgy. But I was something else (darker, non-Christian) when I began my sacred music career.

    I wasn't in charge until I became Catholic. And while, because of my history, I'm open to non-Christian participation, tbh I don't think I'd be able to do my job without Jesus. It's hard enough as it is with a little grace. I would have foundered. So really, I couldn't recommend hiring a non-Christian.
    Thanked by 4tomjaw AnimaVocis CHGiffen Andrew_Malton
  • Felicia
    Posts: 127
    Twenty-five years ago, I (a revert) presented a paper on "Protestant Hymnody in Contemporary Roman Catholic worship" at Wheaton College as part of the Hymnody in American Protestantism Project, sponsored by the Institute for the Study of American Evangelicalism (ISAE). At time the call for proposals went out (probably in 1997, since the selections were made in 1998), I had been working on a bibliography of Catholic hymnals published since Vatican II (that was published in 1998 in The Hymn), so I sent in a proposal to the ISAE project, and it was accepted. In the essay I mentioned how some hymns, like "Lo, how a rose" were sung by both Catholics and Lutherans for centuries, and how many hymns written by non-Catholics do not conflict with Catholic teaching, wheareas others are more problematic.
    The symposium took place at Wheaton College in May 2000; the paper and its appendices were published four years later: Piscitelli, Felicia. “Protestant Hymnody in Contemporary Roman Catholic Worship.” Wonderful Words of Life: Hymns in American Protestant History and Theology, edited by Richard J. Mouw and Mark A. Noll (Grand Rapids. Mich.: W.E. Eerdmans, 2004), pages 150-163 (essay) and 265-272 (appendices).

    The paper received several reviews and citations, mainly by non-Catholics. I don't think many Catholics are aware of it. When I made the presentation, a Catholic informed me that he didn't think it was very pastoral. (Of course, I had written it from a more historical framework.)
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen irishtenor Chrism
  • francis
    Posts: 10,912
    In all my years of studying various “religions”, I have almost always found that the LDS church has its origins in Freemasonry which in itself has its roots in Luciferianism. What have others found through experience, research or otherwise?
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,123
    It's simpler, Francis: Joseph Smith had the same sort of inspiration as Henry VIII. (Paternal side of family was RLDS/Community of Christ, and I live near one of the Prophet's old haunts.)

    Felicia: how could such a thing be "not pastoral"?
    Thanked by 2francis Felicia
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 462
    In all my years of studying various “religions”, I have almost always found that the LDS church has its origins in Freemasonry which in itself has its roots in Luciferianism. What have others found through experience, research or otherwise?


    I lived in the Mormon capital of Canada and was tempted to become Mormon while in college. The general consensus I came up with is they’re very kind, hardworking people with very messed up and bad theology (celestial polygamy, Lucifer and Jesus were brothers, everyone gets their own planet after they die, etc). I also heard about the Freemasonry and their Temple ceremonies. I didn’t like their marriage sealings with their ceremonial temple dress instead of the traditional marriage ceremony. The final straw was their weird conception of confession where you confess your sins to your bishop and he puts them in a file. If you don’t commit them again for a set amount of time, they stay forgiven, otherwise your old sins come back and are no longer forgiven. The missionary who was teaching me all this couldn’t explain it in light of what the Bible says and Catholic Sacramental confession and absolution, and advised me to not become Mormon and to stay with the Catholic Church.
    Thanked by 2francis Roborgelmeister
  • francis
    Posts: 10,912
    Whoa… didn’t know about getting your own planet! Far out, man! So glad you stayed with the RCC!

    Slightly off topic
    I had my students calculating light years into human years last week, traveling at 16000 mph and trying to cross the Helix nebulae… we came up with about 3000 human lifetimes of 80 years each.
  • Felicia
    Posts: 127
    @Jeffrey Quick:

    My impression was, and still is, is that Catholics favoring the "pastoral music" approach were not particularly interested in history. BTW, there were only a handful of Catholics at that conference, myself included.
  • FSSPmusic
    Posts: 325
    The rule against liquor and cigarettes was enough to keep me from considering Mormonism when I was church shopping in my youth, and the rule against coffee would be sufficient to prevent me now, apart from the theological considerations! They have a large presence in my diocese, and our current bishop has made efforts to have friendly relations with LDS leaders, which have been reciprocated. While their church was being renovated, the combined choirs of a Catholic parish were allowed to give a concert at an LDS stake center auditorium, of music in honor of the Blessed Sacrament. How's that for ecumenism in action?

    The Catholic Church does not regard their baptism as a valid sacrament, but whether their religion constitutes a heretical form of Christianity or a non-Christian religion might still be an open question. They believe that Jesus Christ was God incarnate, who died for our sins and rose again, which is not a non-Christian doctrine. But they also believe that God the Father was once a man and that our spirits existed before conception, which are not Christian doctrines. They have an elaborate cosmology and theology of divinization, which they call exaltation, that could be considered henotheistic, if not outright polytheistic, although they only worship and pray to the Father; Mormon prayers are not addressed to Jesus or the Holy Ghost/Spirit—but perhaps that is enough to make them non-Christian!

    A man can be sealed (married) to multiple wives consecutively, although no longer simultaneously. Since they believe the marriage bond persists after death, you can see how polygamy remains a live issue in Mormon theology. Joseph Smith had several dozen wives himself, although it is claimed that he probably only had relations with the one who bore his children. A lot of non-Mormons ("Gentiles") aren't aware that they practice posthumous baptism and wear sacred undergarments.

    Apparently they have no rule against attending non-Mormon services or even receiving sacraments if invited to do so. They are probably more respectful of other religions than we are of theirs, to be honest. In the old days, the moral theologians said that a non-Catholic organist could be employed temporarily, on a substitute or interim basis. I rather like Jeffrey's phrase "preferential option for Catholic musicians"! How would we feel about a Unitarian, a Christian Scientist, a Jew, or a lapsed Catholic, compared to a Protestant or Orthodox organist? I read an article about religion in Sweden that said it's not uncommon there for atheists still to identify as Christian. Someone was quoted as saying something along the lines of, "In Sweden, it's important to know what kind of a god an atheist doesn't believe in." That really has nothing to do with the topic, but I thought it would be amusing to share.

    EDIT: I meant to include above that it's frequently been claimed that Smith had an amulet or talisman of Jupiter on his person when he was killed. There seems to be quite a bit of evidence that he practiced folk magic.
    https://lifeafterministry.com/2014/01/joseph-smiths-jupiter-talisman-is-there-no-help-for-the-widows-son/
    Thanked by 2tomjaw cesarfranck
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,590
    A lot of non-Mormons ("Gentiles") aren't aware that they practice posthumous baptism
    If a diocese doesn't forbid turning over baptismal records to any Mormon-affiliated company or institution for what they claim are the purposes of genealogical research and archives, well, the diocese needs to forbid it.

    Thanked by 1Roborgelmeister
  • Birdsong
    Posts: 6
    This is sad, but it is not the only instance. I have sung in choirs for years where there were non-practicing Catholics. One of the organists who was raised Catholic has had several husbands, no annulments, never genuflects or shows any reverence when she is at Mass. I have witnessed choir members who are only at Mass because it's a chance to perform. I have witnessed choir members who, when not singing, talk with each other out loud during the priest's homily, and continue to talk during the Creed. It's a distressing commentary on our times that we cannot get enough devout Catholics together for choir. I think it highlights the destructive effect of worldly culture and values and signals a dire need for prayer and evangelization.
    Thanked by 3tomjaw DavidOLGC CharlesW
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 462
    The Catholic Church does not regard their baptism as a valid sacrament, but whether their religion constitutes a heretical form of Christianity or a non-Christian religion might still be an open question. They believe that Jesus Christ was God incarnate, who died for our sins and rose again, which is not a non-Christian doctrine

    They’re not Christians. They reject original sin. They also do not believe in the Holy Trinity. They do not believe that Jesus is God. Specifically, they believe:
    We believe that Jesus was fully human in that He was subject to sickness, to pain and to temptation. We believe Jesus is the Son of God the Father and as such inherited powers of godhood and divinity from His Father, including immortality, the capacity to live forever.

    https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/what-mormons-believe-about-jesus-christ#:~:text=We believe that Jesus was,the capacity to live forever.
    Thanked by 2hilluminar Roborgelmeister
  • FSSPmusic
    Posts: 325
    Jesus is the Son of God the Father and as such inherited powers of godhood and divinity from His Father, including immortality, the capacity to live forever.
    It's not Catholic verbiage, but I would need a theologian to explain to me how this differs essentially from the formulation, "eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten not made." I certainly don't mean to play the role of an apologist for Mormonism, but I think it's important as a matter of truth, charity, and justice that we not misrepresent their beliefs. The same document you linked says, "We believe Jesus suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane and that He submitted to a cruel death on the cross of Calvary, all as a willing sacrifice, a substitutionary atonement for our sins.... The atonement of Christ is infinite and eternal in scope.... Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God."

    Unitatis redintegratio states that there is a "hierarchy" of truths in Catholic doctrine, without specifying that hierarchy. I couldn't tell you whether the Trinity is higher up than the Incarnation any more than I could say whether the Filioque is higher than the Immaculate Conception. As Catholics we believe all of it!

    To clarify, by "lapsed Catholic" I mean one who has totally ceased practice of the Catholic faith and no longer identifies as Catholic, not someone in an irregular marriage situation, or who doesn't receive sacraments for whatever reason, or who believes everything but is in mortal sin, or who talks during Mass (which is unacceptable).
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,982
    I think it fair to make a few observations:
    1.) it is technically deficient to hire non-catholics for a role, *whenever a catholic is available to take the role*. Entrusting corporate latria to people who do not hold the faith needs serious consideration. A few of the examples above prove that such a course of action can have happy endings, but sometimes it does not. Consider one metropolitan cathedral (which I will not name) which has a music minister who is an ordained minister of a protestant sect. A friend of mine was further scandalized when he went to visit the cathedral and met the incumbent, who also brazenly declared that he rejected Marian theology and that he refused to schedule any music that honored her in any way. This should not be happening (at a cathedral no less!).

    Even in those cases of good-will on the part of the incumbent there is still a certain defect when one of the people most impactful on the formal latria of the church doesn't fully share the faith. I often think of BXVI's adage about "better to do humble music well, rather than fancy music poorly". One might amend that to be, "better to have a humble musician who shares the faith than a highly-skilled one who doesn't." Some are bound to disagree, but considering the fact that catechumens could not even stay in the church after the liturgy of the word in years past, how can one then expect someone who does not share the faith, and is not even a catechumen, to then be responsible for the successful completion of the sacred mysteries? There is (I would argue) a certain objective defect here. I am not arguing that non-catholics should therefore be automatically barred from serving. But I reiterate that it warrants special consideration, and, arguably, special oversight on the part of the pastor. Examples such as AnimaVocis—who took pains to respect catholic liturgical culture and beliefs—are likely not the norm.

    There is also a difference between someone who is merely contracted to come in and play whatever they are told, and those who are MD's and therefore responsible for helping craft the liturgy itself.

    2.) A distinction needs to be drawn between non-Catholic Christians and pagans.
    Someone who is part of the LDS, no matter what they say, is technically pagan. 

    Consider this: their "baptism" is one of only a select few that is rejected by the Church. Their understanding of the Godhead is so deformed that even their "trinitarian" formula for baptism is declared null and void in the formal sense. Arguably, LDS members are an awful lot closer to us than Buddhists or other more classically pagan sects, but this does not change the objective reality that in spite of any claims to the contrary, they are not Christian. This particular case is extra grave, therefore, since it is not a mere matter of haggling over details... it's haggling over fundamentals.

    Non-Christians are not permitted to proclaim the word of God (this often comes to bear at Funerals and Weddings, when family and friends are asked to do readings). How, then, could an LDS minister be the psalmist? According to canon-law, s/he couldn't.

    And since I sense the question coming: yes, this would logically imply that if someone apostatizes from the faith during ministry, they should be removed. If they harbor their feelings privately and put on a brave face, that's between them and God. But if public acknowledgement is made, they should recuse themselves or be dismissed. This would be no different than a priest admitting he no longer believed.

    3.) other faiths often do not tolerate non-adherents from partaking in or leading their liturgies. Can you imagine an islamic group permitting a non-muslim to intone the call to prayer? Even conservative MS lutherans would never permit anyone who wasn't a professed adherent to serve. I just posit this as food for thought. Again, I make no claim that exceptions cannot be made, or that our Lord cannot redeem any situation and work it to the greater good. But our default position should not be one where anything goes just because someone is a decent organist or has a music degree.
    Thanked by 11francis CharlesW OMagnumMysterium CHGiffen AnimaVocis DavidOLGC LauraKaz hilluminar Jeffrey Quick Chant_Supremacist Casavant Organist
  • francis
    Posts: 10,912
    @ServiamScores

    exactly my sentiment spoken well.
    Thanked by 2AnimaVocis ServiamScores
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    I have known of churches that hired total unbelievers because of their good musical abilities. That always seemed to me like being in bed with the Devil but your mileage may vary.
    Thanked by 3DavidOLGC ServiamScores francis
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,590
    There is a church where the longtime DM is an Old Catholic priest (not the only problem). That’s even worse than Protestant minister imho.

    Mormons aren’t even Arian, to the point above, although I think that their language confuses people. This Protestant article is good. (I bet that they are also good on Freemasonry; surprise, that had a huge influence on Mormonism.)
    Thanked by 4FSSPmusic ServiamScores LauraKaz Roborgelmeister
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,846
    It's an old question, whether the devil should have all the good tunes and the Unitarians first pick of freelance musicians. I've always felt it an honor to serve at temple on High Holy Days. The cited precedent there is Solomon's choosing artisans from Tyre to build his temple.

    I wonder what in AnimaVocis' experience supports the existence of a rule behind the exception. One would hope for good manners at Mass from the choir no less than the congregants. My own experience is that outsiders are likely to stay on their toes.

    If one is really serious about showing preference to Catholics though, I guess Mozart is in and Bach is out ;-P
    Thanked by 2DavidOLGC StimsonInRehab
  • FSSPmusic
    Posts: 325
    This document is very helpful:
    https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20010605_battesimo_mormoni-ladaria_en.html
    As is easily seen, to the similarity of titles there does not correspond in any way a doctrinal content which can lead to the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. The words Father, Son and Holy Spirit, have for the Mormons a meaning totally different from the Christian meaning. The differences are so great that one cannot even consider that this doctrine is a heresy which emerged out of a false understanding of the Christian doctrine. The teaching of the Mormons has a completely different matrix. We do not find ourselves, therefore, before the case of the validity of Baptism administered by heretics, affirmed already from the first Christian centuries, nor of Baptism conferred in non-Catholic ecclesial communities, as noted in Canon 869 §2.
    Thanked by 2ServiamScores Charles_Weaver
  • davido
    Posts: 998
    At least these non Catholics got hired. I know of lots of parishes that can’t be bothered to hire anybody.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW Nazard
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,954
    FSSPmusic cited an LDS expression of doctrine, and wondered if it was different from a Catholic expression of Christological doctrine:
    Jesus is the Son of God the Father and as such inherited powers of godhood and divinity from His Father, including immortality, the capacity to live forever.
    It's not Catholic verbiage, but I would need a theologian to explain to me how this differs essentially from the formulation, "eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten not made."


    In the LDS concept of God, God has a physical body, and was once a human being; and the destiny of man, when perfected, is to literally become a god and do the things that God does: create beings, perfect them, etc. (But note: they believe that creation is not ex-nihilo, but creation out of existing matter. So in their concept, God is not the source of matter.)
    Thanked by 1Liam
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,590
    Again, not to directly speak to the case which prompted this post, but a Mormon might be the worst choice, given these problems. I don’t think that other non-Christians would ever apply for a DM job.
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,982
    For me personally, seeing churches with either protestant or pagan music ministers (as well as those MD's who openly live lives entirely divorced from Catholic moral theology, and in their openness appear to have the tacit approval of their priest...) is every bit as scandalous as if the priest himself were apostate or from another denomination, or himself living a debauched life. MD's are very public figures in their respective churches. As such, it seems entirely reasonable to hold them to a higher standard, similar to a priest, or a principal of a catholic school, for instance.

    Everyone of good sense was scandalized by the recent example of a bishop who permitted an anglican "priestess" to "concelebrate" at his inaugural mass. I feel the same level of surprise and discomfort whenever I encounter similar situations with MD's (not least of which is the cathedral example I cited above). I'm sure someone will accuse me of "clutching pearls", but there's no getting around the fact that we are entrusting very sacred duties to people who do not share our beliefs —no matter how benign a situation it may appear to be.

    We have watched a precipitous decline of the church during recent decades—largely due to an absolute crisis of faith. Then we blithely employ protestants or non-believers in crucial roles—roles that directly impact people's faith lives—(who often make extensive use of musical resources that do not properly reflect authentic doctrine,) and we act surprised when people walk away from the church.

    It's hardly a mystery. We've all seen what happens when heads of religious orders betray their vocation... or priests & bishops... the religious orders wither and die. Monasteries empty, and some groups become hallowed corpses of their former selves. (looking at you, Jesuits) Should we really be playing with the same fire when it comes to the Sacred Liturgy?
    Thanked by 7hilluminar OMagnumMysterium francis StimsonInRehab DavidOLGC LauraKaz Chant_Supremacist
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,954
    Just to throw in my two cents' worth: one of the finest organists and choir directors I've found working in a Catholic parish is a Unitarian who taught the choir a lot of classic OUP anthems, and who presented everything he scheduled for the pastor's written approval weekly.
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen StimsonInRehab ServiamScores
  • Chrism
    Posts: 879
    Unsuitability for ministry is a spectrum. We all fall short of the Standard.

    Suitability is also a spectrum. We are all made in His image and likeness.

    It's good that Holy Mother Church can make distinctions, and provide pastors to make decisions in concrete situations.

    The objective evil of our sins and errors, were they fully autopsied, would surely disgust even the strongest souls, and perhaps especially them.
    Thanked by 2ServiamScores CHGiffen
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,982
    chonak: fair enough. (Note the review by the pastor as I suggested above, as well as the minister's own desire to be conscientious and proactive by submitting to him in advance and, I presume, making any requested adjustments.)

    Chrism, re: suitability/unsuitability—yours is indeed a just observation.
    Thanked by 3chonak CHGiffen Chrism
  • RoborgelmeisterRoborgelmeister
    Posts: 206
    For the record: interaction with LDS is INTERFAITH, not ecumenical. I have had to correct Roman Catholic laypeople MANY times that dealing with Protestants is NOT interfaith, it's ecumenical. Surprising that the distinction gets lost. Protestants share some, but not all of the Roman Catholic faith (Trinitarian Baptism, Jesus is truly God and truly man). Non-Christian includes LDS, Christian Science (which is neither Christian nor Scientific -- they do not believe in original sin), and Jehovah's Witnesses. All of them pervert the Holy Scriptures.
    Thanked by 4DavidOLGC ServiamScores francis wspinnen
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,191
    Protestant churches that use the valid baptismal form and matter also share the sacrament of baptism, unlike LDS.
    Thanked by 3ServiamScores francis Roborgelmeister
  • cesarfranck
    Posts: 165
    I am Episcopalian/Anglican..I am organist-choirmaster at an Anglican church. I also play funerals for our small city's largest mortuary/funeral home. I have played many funerals in the local LDS church. The services are as dry as can be -- nothing uplifting or inspired or really "sacred and holy." Further there hymnals are simply tawdry and never well sung. So, I could certainly understand a Mormon with reasonable music abilities wishing to work in a mainline Protestant church or Roman Catholic church. Personally, I do not consider LDS Christian for a number of reasons, the most important reason is that they do not believe in the Holy Trinity. Shifting gears, I play funerals at the Roman Catholic church in our community. At the funeral Mass that I played today, I was very appreciative of just how much their liturgy has improved over the last twenty years. I have considered playing their two weekend masses that do not conflict with my own church position. There is one slight problem in that they have no desire to pay for a trained musician and prefer to use well-meaning but untrained church members. I hope my sharing helps with the original post. You get what you pay for and a practicing Mormon would be a very poor choice for a Catholic parish while someone who has played in Episcopal, Lutheran, and Presbyterian churches might make a good fit.
    Thanked by 9hilluminar irishtenor Nazard mattebery ServiamScores IanW LauraKaz CharlesW Elmar
  • Felicia
    Posts: 127
    "There is one slight problem in that they have no desire to pay for a trained musician and prefer to use well-meaning but untrained church members."

    Or even well-meaning, trained, and unpaid church members.
    Thanked by 5ServiamScores Liam LauraKaz CharlesW Elmar
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