Weddings that start late: how do you handle this?
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,434
    I am putting something together because our church is finally starting weddings again (no real room for them in our present circumstances).

    In fact I have mostly lifted what Patrick Williams (@FSSPmusic here) uses. I have been DM'ing and wasn't going to publish anything, but I need more advice. Patrick says:

    The seating of mothers and grandmothers is to begin promptly at the announced ceremony time. There will be an additional charge of $50 per fifteen minutes late; after 45 minutes, the fee will increase to $200. It is also under­stood that a wedding ceremony should normally take no longer than an hour and a half, or an hour and 45 minutes if full Hispanic customs are observed, and that singers and musicians may have to leave early if a wedding starts considerably late and they have commitments later in the day. Starting late shows disrespect for the house of God, the dignity of the sacred rites of divine worship, and the time of invited guests, hired professionals, clergy, altar servers and their families, and choir members who taken time out of their day to make the wedding as beautiful as possible.


    The pushback that I'm getting to including that is basically that: — it's unenforceable.
    — the tardiness may be for a good reason, even if we are talking a much longer period of time (let's say forty-five minutes)
    — someone then has to go to the spouse-to-be who is present or the parents and remind them of the policy
    — They won't send a check, so you need to collect the fee then and there. But maybe they don't have a checkbook, no cash, insufficient funds.
    — the priest will tell you to start the wedding.

    I am actually ambivalent about a fee, but Patrick's parish is similar to mine. A Mass is easily a three-hour deviation from the rest of our days: we don't even get to warm up, but we leave up to an hour early, to get there a half-hour or even just fifteen minutes early, and it's at least a half-hour trip back, after a Mass that lasts at least an hour. The trouble is that we're in an in-demand urban neighborhood, across from which is the large park where many city events are held on Friday nights or weekends. The minor-league ballpark is nearby (it's not that much traffic, but it's traffic that means the difference between on time and a little bit late!). We're not that far from the football stadium (the college games on Saturday featuring the local HBCU aren't a big deal, but that's where the neutral-site home games of the University of Tennessee are held, and there are concerts in summer). Accidents are a frequent concern.

    My attitude is that a late couple isn't my problem. I know that musicians here have forced parents to pay up in the first place and that that was an exception; their usual policy was that the parish was to receive payment in advance, not to wait until the day of the wedding. I don't see how a late fee known to be a part of the policy is different. Either pay, if you can't be on time within a reasonable buffer period, or the musicians get to leave (keep in mind too that, well, we can't start without the couple, the priest, or the organist…and in my case, we have always started on time with all musicians or with the straggler showing up within Patrick's buffer period, in my four years here; only once or twice have we had fewer than expected — but everyone necessary to do the propers was on time, which sort of gets to my point that a fifteen-minute buffer afforded to the schola/choir doing the TLM, where the wedding precedes the Mass, is actually unnecessary in most cases)

    The local parish that would have similarly high standards of sacred music does not have a late fee. They simply say that weddings must start promptly at 11 AM or 2 PM on Saturdays or on Fridays at 6 PM, whatever time is schedule of the three available. They do not indicate what happens if a couple is late. The pastor does not list the possible consequences, but there's got to be one, right? (I just emailed to ask.) I can't find too many parishes with published wedding policies including the music one.

    Any thoughts? I want to be able to say to the pastor "this is what others do, this works, I don't want to reinvent the wheel, and I want something that no one can plead with you to not enforce".

    I mean, I'd be fine if the fee is just considered a donation to the parish and not necessarily income for the musicians, but I want there to be a real consequence.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,232
    I've heard that some people collect the late fee as a deposit and refund it if the wedding starts on time.
  • A wedding that starts too late could easily conflict with a following parish mass.

    Thankfully, I’ve only experienced this twice. A wedding where the mother of the bride arrived at the stated wedding time. We ended up starting over an hour late. The wedding coordinator should have given word, but I ended up stopping the prelude about 30 min past the wedding time to see what was up. We had not had many Hispanic weddings at that cathedral at that point so the wedding coordinator was unprepared. In the future I believe they said we’re starting at the printed time period.

    A personal example speaking to your “valid issue” situation was my own sisters wedding. A family member that was driving 7 hours to participate was stuck behind a very big wreak outside of town and was supposed to be a participant in the wedding. I do wish the organ in question was larger than 3 ranks. I guess a decision could have been made in either direction in this case but some things can never be planned for. It would have been major family drama if we started without her as well.

    In both of these cases, there was nothing schedule wise that would be broken by waiting it out. I know that I pay union musicians by the minute. Why are we less valuable than they are? I wasn’t being paid—obviously—for my sisters wedding but it is a bit demeaning to make unreasonable demands on staff members time in a normal parish.
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,092
    I think an effective late policy would be to have a set grace period -- say, twenty-five minutes maximum -- after which a planned wedding Mass instead becomes a wedding liturgy outside of Mass. That cuts the liturgy down to only about 20-30 minutes, and it's an easy change to make in the moment. It's still a valid marriage.

    No need to collect any late fees, in that case, and most of the music and readings can still be performed. All that would be left out are the offertory, Eucharistic Prayer, and Communion. The priest can also plan to give a truncated homily, if need be.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,434
    A wedding that starts too late could easily conflict with a following parish mass


    Generally we won’t have this issue but yep. At the very least, the reception is all off, and if we can’t start without the musicians etc. why does the couple get a pass?

    I know that I pay union musicians by the minute. Why are we less valuable than they are? I wasn’t being paid—obviously—for my sisters wedding but it is a bit demeaning to make unreasonable demands on staff members time in a normal parish.


    My thinking exactly, including for people who donate their time on Sundays and feasts. We will have a minimum group that is paid for the propers and Gregorian Ordinary.

    No need to collect any late fees, in that case, and most of the music and readings can still be performed. All that would be left out are the offertory, Eucharistic Prayer, and Communion. The priest can also plan to give a truncated homily, if need be.


    Well we will have continued permission for the usus antiquior. (I didn’t want to go into this aspect for obvious reasons.) So there is no music to sing since most of it is of the Massive, no readings to be had, the sermon is the exhortation from the ritual, but there is time spent waiting. We don’t know if we will get any requests for the NO at all.
  • FSSPmusic
    Posts: 304
    chonak's suggestion is best. The deposit doesn't have to be specifically for the late fee but can also cover damages or cleaning costs beyond what may be reasonably expected, especially if they have the reception on site. We have a 15-minute grace period before any late fee applies, which seems more than reasonable.

    We've had two weddings that started more than 45 minutes lates. I don't remember what the hold-up for the first was. The groom forgot his tuxedo pants for the second. If I have contracted 8-12 singers for a two hour time slot (three hours if there's an extra rehearsal), none of whom knows the couple personally or has been invited to the reception, there's a good chance at least one or two of them will have another commitment later in the day. As organist, what am I to do except repeat pieces, play from whatever sheet music I have on hand, or take a break? I believe both of those weddings where I played continuously for more than an hour without a break included the entirety of the Eight Little Preludes and Fugues!

    Our parish accountant insists that payments go through her now. I used to have couples who would hand me an envelope full of $50s and $20s to pay singers $85 and $25 apiece, which was a nightmare. Musicians should not have to go to a side room and open their wallets to see who can make change for what. It's needless hassle and not good business. The accountant strongly cautioned me against accepting collective payments and then writing checks or making Zelle transfers from my personal checking account. I was never expected to do such things at previous positions. If a couple wanted to hire twelve musicians, they either brought correct change or else wrote separate checks, but somehow people here get the notion that playing the role of banker is my responsibility.

    My current wedding frustration here is the persistent demand for "O God, beyond All Praising" for a recessional hymn. It's not in our hymnal, they will never hear or sing it at Sunday Masses here, it's not listed in our wedding music policy or playlists, and I find it both musically and textually objectionable, yet couples keep asking for it. What is wrong with "Holy God, We Praise Thy Name" if they want a strong English hymn to close? Must we have a text that refers to God as you, despite all of our English prayers and hymns using Thee, set to a melody from a secular work about astrology (yes, I know it has been used as a hymn tune for more than a century)?
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,434
    Yeah. Making correct change or writing individual checks and putting the money in individual envelopes was the norm in the parish of my adolescence and (immediate post-) college years. For funerals that money was an additional and welcome gift.

    I have suggested that policy be, for now, whatever the wedding coordinator says. The bookkeeper may tell us what to do, which we’ll follow.

    I hate that hymn too. They sang it at the first organ concert with the lovely new organ at the cathedral of the Incarnation. Look, THAXTED is cool (I like the movement and the work as a whole), but it’s the wrong text if you play like it’s Westminster Abbey.
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  • wspinnen
    Posts: 5
    At my first parish job years ago, a wedding was supposed to be Saturday 11:00am. The night before at the rehearsal, the couple casually changed it to 12:00. Nobody informed me, so I'm in a cold choir loft with a violinist and cantor for like two hours (10:15 call time for an 11:00 wedding which began at 12:20pm). This was an isolated incident, thank goodness, but afterward, I had to create a policy to the effect of what you're aiming for, and it worked, surprisingly...
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  • TCJ
    Posts: 993
    One of the priests here tells people that if they are any more than 10 minutes late, the wedding is off and they have to reschedule.
    Thanked by 1MatthewRoth
  • Our parish accountant insists that payments go through her now.

    Back when I sang at weddings, our MD/organist was contracted out privately through his own business. He’d pay us in cash, but we’d have to provide an email receipt of payment to him as his contract employees. I’m fairly certain that he didn’t take his share of the fee because the math didn’t math. It was quite the lucrative side hustle for so little work (I wouldn’t even call it work) compared to my actual job.
    Thanked by 1MatthewRoth
  • Man, I knew i should have made popcorn before reading this thread. ;-)

    it seems that wedding stories claim an undue share of drama, if not downright crisis. At the last wedding i attended which was >30 minutes late, it was the best man who was missing. that's pretty close to required personae, but maybe not.

    about that deposit which could be used against unreasonable lateness, OR unexpected cleaning fees etc - a very good idea, but wouldn't the church need to state in writing the likely circumstances where it would incur?

  • Felicia
    Posts: 120
    The first time I ever played for a wedding, the couple was 45 minutes late. (I never knew the reason.) I was young then, and glad to be paid at all.

    The music director or even the pastor should make it clear during the planning process (maybe by means of this added fee) that the ceremony needs to start as close to on-time as possible for the sake of everyone involved. I've only played at weddings occasionally (though I have encountered various dramas in a few ;-). Plus, I'm not the one in charge of music at my parish, so I'm not involved directly in wedding planning. FWIW
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  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,825
    I don't see why I should worry myself about anyone starting late. It's finishing late that's the problem, isn't it?
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,434
    a very good idea, but wouldn't the church need to state in writing the likely circumstances where it would incur?


    Yes.

    I don't see why I should worry myself about anyone starting late. It's finishing late that's the problem, isn't it?


    Err, well…one tends to lead to the other.
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  • davido
    Posts: 973
    I had an organist friend that would stay for an hour after the scheduled start time. After that hour, he would just leave to go to his vigil mass.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,881
    The groom forgot his tuxedo pants for the second.
    Did they announce this to the congregation as to why the wedding would be delayed? Just curious.
  • FSSPmusic
    Posts: 304
    One of the priests here tells people that if they are any more than 10 minutes late, the wedding is off and they have to reschedule.
    And how does that affect the music fees? Do you have singers who drive a considerable distance, like some of mine?
    It was quite the lucrative side hustle for so little work
    I can't say that's the case here. First, it's quite a lot of work—typically five movements of a polyphonic Mass, three motets, and the propers. Second, my section leaders don't get paid any more for weddings than for parish Masses. It would be intolerable for a Sunday or feast day Mass to start 15 minutes late, and unthinkable for it to start more than 45 minutes late! And yes, as a matter of justice, I would feel obligated to compensate them for their time if that were to happen.
    I don't see why I should worry myself about anyone starting late. It's finishing late that's the problem, isn't it?
    Are you the organist? If you're not the one who has to increase the prelude from 25 minutes to 70 or more, then I suppose it isn't your problem.
    I had an organist friend that would stay for an hour after the scheduled start time. After that hour, he would just leave to go to his vigil mass.
    That's part of the concern, isn't it? When he realizes his musicians have all left midway through a Mass that started the better part of an hour late, does the celebrant just switch over from Sung to Low Mass? Recto tono the choir parts himself?
    Did they announce this to the congregation as to why the wedding would be delayed? Just curious.
    The forgotten trousers were referred to humorously in the sermon.
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  • I have had only one nuptial mass that wasn't on time (not counting several that were ten or fifteen minutes late) - but it made up for any others that might have happened. It occurred sometime in the mid sixties, and was at Houston's St George's Greek Orthodox Cathedral (a fine example of Byzantine architecture). After about an hour and three quarters the bride finally showed up. The wedding was supposed to have had a renaissance theme but that was not apparent in any of the wedding party's attire. I was glad, though, to go through all the early music that I could lay my hands on. When the bride did not show up at the appointed hour I began repeating the pre-service music - and repeating again and again until the bride finally appeared an hour and forty-five minutes late. It didn't occur to me charge extra for this absurd and thoughtless inconvenience. I wonder what would have happened had I done so. Today I simply would not stay and wait for any little Marie Antoinette's preposterous impositions.

    I charge $200 in advance for a wedding and one planning session with the bride-to-be and groom - but not including the wedding rehearsal itself! Any extra rehearsals with singers and/or instrumentalists is $100 extra. Also, if I need to acquire an acceptable piece which isn't in my library they have to pay for it.
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  • tandrews
    Posts: 177
    Counting my blessings I have never had this issue before. Worst we have is we start 2 minutes late while the wedding party lines up.
    Thanked by 2MatthewRoth francis
  • In 1970, when I was a teenager, I played for many weddings at my parish. Often there were two on Saturday, one at 10:00 AM and one at 11:00. I don't know what the priest told the wedding party, but they always started on time. Also, they got the Ave Maria at the Offertory and Panis Angelicus at Communion. No other choices period. The processional was the Purcell Trumpet Tune and the recessional was Marche Pontificale by Gounod. No other music was allowed and lateness was not an option. Oh and by the way, they paid me the princely sum of $5.00!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,997
    I was fortunate that a very good local organist loved to do weddings. I hated them and never cared a flip about Brad and Buffy's special day. I let the local organist have all of them.
  • I like listopad3's and CharlesW's latest responses at the same time. Somehow they both cohere in my musical vision!
  • While they're certainly financially helpful, I don't know that I've ever particularly enjoyed playing weddings.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,881
    I have done over 300 weddings. Although a few minutes late here and there, I never experienced a blowout where it was pushing an hour, nor that musicians left. I NEVER hired union musicians however.
  • ...ever particularly enjoyed...
    Most weddings are pleasant. A few are memorable. And fewer still are those that are truly enjoyable and spiritually rewarding. These are the ones about which the bride and groom showed genuine and enthusiastic appreciation for the music and the effort that goes into realising a sacred ceremony and show it every time we happen to meet. Numbers of times I've overheard someone say 'he (or you) played for our wedding!'. It's easy to get into a negative attitude about weddings because of the relatively few that one would like to forget as soon as possible. Weddings should be thought of as memorable, and special, parts of parish life in spite of those who think of them as purely private affairs and are difficult to deal with. Try praying for your brides and grooms as they enter another path in their spiritual lives. If a wedding is just another 'wedding' for which one gets a financial shot in the arm something is wrong!

    By the way - in the Ordinariate the banns of marriage are published three times previous to the ceremony itself. This in itself advertises the wedding as a public event within the life of the parish.
  • Magdalene
    Posts: 17
    For context, I am the organist, cantor, parish wedding coordinator, etc so I am there from unlocking the doors, until the end of Vigil Mass later that evening, so I'm already slated to be at the church ~5 hours. Rarely does the couple hire additional musicians, but if they do they are responsible for paying them and any fees they might charge for overtime.
    Our wedding guidelines state that they have reserved the church for 1.5 hours from the booked time, not the time their wedding starts. Most book Ceremonies, not a Mass so it doesn't cause too much of a headache if they are 30 minutes late. Annoying, but they are still usually done on time. If they go past, our pastor has zero qualms about shutting off all the church lights in the middle of photos. (90% of our weddings are "destination" weddings, not parishioners so we'll never see them again to worry about bad blood) There's been mad brides, but they were thirty minutes late and their priest didn't have the sense to cut his thirty minute homily down. ("Destination" weddings need to bring their own celebrant)
    I love the idea of increasing the deposit to cover potential cleaning fees, late fees, and breaking the rules. We could have used that last year....
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  • I had to stop playing after I'd been on the bench for 40 minutes... a restroom break was in order. Boy, did I get in the neck for stopping. The talking quieted down, only to resume to an insane level the instant I resumed playing. Loud, they talked louder. Soft, they just kept prattling on. I despise weddings where the guests are unchurched! Said wedding started with the seating of the mothers, 40 minutes after the announced start time! And, I had a 45 minute commute each way! What a rip off. I had been told that weddings at this smallish rural parish didn't start on time, "because everybody knows everybody." I broke into the chow line, with a, "excuse me, but I was the organist, and I'm famished." I got dirty looks, but no one knocked the plate out of my hand. Sadly, there was only cheap beer on tap, and that's inexcusable in an area where one of the primary cash crops is hops!
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,937
    My biggest problem hasn't been with the Bride or Groom, usually - I'm blessed to have known some very devout couples - the problem comes from wedding planners who are not only absolutely clueless when it comes to music, but cannot follow the most basic of directions, even when their cues are spelled out in monumental detail.

    "Don't know what 'Purcell's Trumpet Tune' [or whatever] sounds like? Okay. Send the wedding party in when I give you the signal. When I give you the signal. When. I. Give. You. The. Signal."

    [Wedding party, without fail, is sent in too early or too late.]