I can’t see the point of offering it to a schola exclusively without translations when creating a work from scratch that also has vernacular offerings. It’s one thing to have a Liber and say to use your missal or your phone otherwise, but a new book is different.

I would think that it would be preferable, with these points in mind, that the advertising be updated to make reference to the fact that it really is intended for old-rite communities. I get that reading between the lines, people can glean it, but really the current presentation just indicates that it’s a traditional hymnal, and that terminology indicates a broader scope than the intended use case.

Looking forward to reviewing this Hymnal in hope that it will serve our Diocesan Extraordinary Form community at Mass and (hopefully in the future) vespers!

I see it has been made for the French, with accents on two syllable Latin words.

I see it has been made for the French, with accents on two syllable Latin words.

I noticed that as well. Totally unnecessary in my opinion.

Does it make sense, from the perspective of a regular parish, to have 11 settings of the Creed? The many engraving errors, already present in the few sample pictures available, are not very promising.

I too would surely mention the specific use for Masses according to the 1962 Roman Missal.

@FSSPmusic do you mean in “All Glory, Laud, and Honor”, at the end of lines, or somewhere else?

Yes, but it's a stylistic choice, not an error per se. In the first twenty or so examples on the hymnary.org site, most do break bars at the end of the line, but only two use a normal bar line at the break. Most use an open staff, i.e. an invisible bar line. A couple use a double bar line. A thick bar line is another option, see here.

I immediately noticed the piano style of writing SATB hymnody as a departure from accepted norms along with more than four versus being put inside a grand staff…in my opinion the 1940 is a premier model for standards to engrave a hymnal

ServiamScores:

I can imagine some NOM communities, very "high church," wanting to use this, so Os Justi Press won't brand it as TLM-only. But I think no one will buy 500 copies without looking at an evaluation copy, and it's at that point that they'll have to judge whether it'll work for their specific needs or not.

As for accents on two-syllable Latin words, this is hardly a "make or break" issue

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Maybe individuals do, but I do not believe that anyone is consciously perpetuating this element of the Liber Usualis on a more widespread level; we talk about how much time this engraving took and how this means sacrificing other things. Fine. But the tradeoff is inserting these unnecessary accents, not an easy task even if you memorize the Unicode entries or have a Mac that covers the symbols omitted with ASCII on Windows with an alt code. Which gets to the point about stems: why switch how these things are engraved from piece to piece? (Maybe I’m the silly one here, but it’s somewhat better to make a singer’s edition with harmonizations that the organist can play from, rather than an organ edition to sing from.)

Serviam didn’t say “TLM-only”, in fairness, just that the target audience is a TLM community — even if it can be used by anyone doing similar things.

Sorry, but this is sounding more and more like Ostrowski advertising: “we did weird stuff, we don’t care, buy our book because it’s the best in the world. It’s the best because we said so.” lol

The pew book for S&S has some odd rhythmic choices clashing with non-usage of the Solesmes signs (a decision which I don’t like but OK, “use the Vatican Edition” is coherent at least).

I basically agree, David. It’s… well, hard to present this to the powers that be now that there’s been more feedback.

I appreciate the contributions of small publishing houses/self publishing. But it’s true that the major Protestant hymnals have set a high standard for over a hundred years.

My question is this ... And without having seen the book in its entirety as I'm waiting on my order to arrive.... Is Sacred/Liturgical music (in the US l, considering this is the home of this Hymnal, and many others) at such an all time high in quality and offering that we really have the time to be bickering about this?

Speaking from the standpoint of the sheer amount of work before to continue what my predecessors had begun in orienting the music to be a truly SACRED music program, I would be overjoyed to know that such a resource exists and is available. I despise subscription models, because they are just another way of making money when that money should be spent on so many other things for a Sacred Music program.

No Hymnal is perfect, let me tell you... And yes, there are many protestant hymnals that are near perfect from an engraving standpoint... However, to compare this new offering from Os Justi and it's team to the "Hymnal 1940" is such an unfair treatment. The Hymnal 1940 was not concerning its-self with a Liturgical revival in the Episcopal church in the same way that we NEED to push for one now in the Catholic Church. They are unfair to both hymnals, as each Hymnal serves different purposes and COMPLETELY SEPARATE RITES (and confessions of faith).

Please, for the sake of what is Good for Holy Mother Church, stop making the good become the enemy of the ideal, because as far as I can tell, this Hymnal, along with the St. Michael Hymnal, Source and Summit, The St. Isaac Jogues Hymnal, and dare we even include Marie's offering of Psalms, Hymns, and Spiritual Canticles, as well as the Gregory and the Pius X hymnals... All seek to offer to God true, honest, Holy worship, and to edify the Faithful to the best of their abilities. No one resource is perfect...

Only once the whole of the church is Liturgical restored can start nitpicking EVERY LITTLE detail of one publisher over another... Or maybe we can say "Thank you" for the good that we receive (however small), put on some humility, and put our energy where it must be spent... In the vineyard, working for the Greater Glory of God, and the Good of Holy Mother Church.

(Rant over... Feel free to poke and prod now...)

My wood in this fire is that we publishers (I also have my small offering of a super light hymnal) is that we need to proof each others work BEFORE it goes to press.

Also, we are thankful for EVERYONES contribution to sacred music here… large or small. That is a given.

However, we should all want the most excellent and most perfectly beautiful of all we create. When we post things on this board we post it for feedback… iron sharpens iron. I would hope that is the perspective of the pro music people in this org.

I had one person send me an entire list of corrections for my work and I was extremely grateful to be able to apply everything that was in the suggestions. They took their own time to go through my book page by page and for me that is invaluable. Of course I took an extremely different approach. I started with a much smaller project… strictly a pew hymnal with a plan to create the choir edition which will probably be spiral bound, so that the organists, (and organists with a failing eyesight) will have a beautiful and functional complimentary resource.

A 900 page hymnal in my mind is way over the top. For the choir and schola, perhaps a great resource. But for the pew, I think it should be much simpler. JMHO

Then again, other hymnals seem to be in the 800 page realm… so maybe not too much?

Well, just from a physical book perspective, I don't think something in the vicinity of 800 pages necessarily has to be unwieldy. The Liber Brevior is 800 pages, and is super light and beautifully proportioned, so I take that as a proof of concept. Granted, for a congregation I'd want slightly thicker pages than the Brevior has. And I also think that we have so much beautiful music to pull from that ~800-1000 pages is not necessarily out of the question. But it is a delicate balance for sure. Having too many choices is bad, I think, because it unnecessarily complicates things. But an abundance of robust classics is the ideal, so if we find 800 pages of robust classics, I'd say use them. But it's a fine line.

I'm grateful that so many people are going to the great trouble of producing and offering their own hymnals, in the attempt to produce something better than what we already have. All the recent endeavors; The Our Lady of Mount Carmel Hymnal, Francis's Fleur De Lis Hymnal, Jeff Ostrowski's three successive hymnals, and especially A book of Catholic Hymns by Noel Jones, as well as any others I've forgotten. They provide many ideas and give communities in various situations options to find what will work for them. Personally, I'm not fully satisfied with any of the current offerings, and I'd like to make my own hymnal eventually, but that would be a couple years down the line, requiring much other work to be done first.

So rather than listing the things I find imperfect about this hymnal, let me throw out a positive: I really like how it is produced in one edition, for congregations, choir and organist. There is something beautiful to me about the simplicity of having one single book which everyone is referencing (similar to how the Liber Usualis is used in some places). And I am happy that if anyone in the congregation feels so inclined, then can sing one of the harmony parts on the hymns, and they are reading off the exact same thing as the choir.

Obviously, last night something hit a nerve... I apologize for my soap box....

Constructive criticism is a great thing when it is given that way! I will likely offer my own when I have a chance to review the Hymnal.


I would love to see S&S, CCWatershed, those behind this publication, and so many others to come together (unite the clans) to help create a truly top notch Catholic Hymnal that transcends all personal preferences because how over the top beautiful and faithful it is in its offering and aesthetics, rather than each company saying, "Look at what we have! It's the most Catholic Hymnal since Catholic became Catholic!"

There are many wonderful options, each with their own deficiencies when compared with opinions, and even standards of music printing.

Speaking of the Lutheran hymnal of 1941 (still in use in many Lutheran Church Missouri Synod) parishes) was of such high quality, as well as it's successor (Lutheran Service Book, and the lesser known intermediary Lutheran Worship) is because they are published by Concordia Publishing House, the primary publishing house for all things Liturgy and worship in the Missouri Synod.