Which Gregorian Credo is the best?
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,824
    i've been mulling over which Credo setting might be introduced to our OF congregation, and Credo III seems the obvious choice, given an englished version in the altar missal. But I seem to recall there was an assortment of opinions in some past threads here, somewhere or other…
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,383
    I. The authentic tone.

    I am partial to V for Paschal Time and on solemnities, but I’m a bit crazy and wouldn’t mind having four options (I for most of the year, IV for Advent and Lent, III a few times a year particularly if the ordinary is otherwise polyphonic, and then V as above).

    I should add that I do not like Credo VII at all.
  • davido
    Posts: 965
    Which is the best? IV, obviously, because it’s the most manly.
    Most popular? III, hands down.
  • GerardH
    Posts: 482
    Credo I is also Englished in the missal
    Thanked by 1Richard Mix
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,793
    I would suggest Credo I as it is the authentic tone. Followed by Credo IV. Too many sing the modern Credo III all the time.

    We sing Credo I for Feasts and Eastertide, II for Lent and Advent, IV for after Epiphany and Pentecost, and VI occasionally. EF of course.
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  • @tomjaw

    What do you mean by "authentic tone"?
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,383
    The rest are a riff on it or are much later independent compositions, particularly III and IV which are mensuralist (as the French would perhaps say "à la base"; I've never found a good English equivalent; "originally" is the idea, but not quite the same…), but err, few people perform them this way, and there is a certain beauty to the Solesmes versions of this, the simple Salve, etc.
  • Which is the best? IV, obviously, because it’s the most manly.

    found a great appreciation for Credo IV (Cardinalis) lately, especially the original mensural version. I've transcribed a version which isn't identical to the original sources, but is a whole lot closer than the Liber, and sings easily, like a nice march.

    Don't forget about the other cantus fractus credos: credo Apostolorum, etc.
    Cardinalis Spondaic (chant).pdf
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    Cardinalis Spondaic (modern).pdf
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    Cardinalis Spondaic.mp3
    4M
  • I vote for Credo I.
    It is the only one ever used at Sarum.
  • Not much love for Credo VI here. Not saying it's my favorite, but it's pretty spectacular with a drone, in a big acoustic.
    Thanked by 1Chant_Supremacist
  • Our current schema:

    Credo I - Major Seasons/Solemnities (Christmastide/Eastertide)
    Credo II - Advent
    Credo III - Sundays of the Year
    Credo IV - Septuagesima through Lent.
    Thanked by 1Chant_Supremacist
  • IV is the best, no question, but as far as what I'd introduce first, I or III
    Thanked by 2NihilNominis tomjaw
  • Our Credo cycle (always congregational):

    Green Sundays - IV
    Advent - I
    Christmas - III
    Lent - I
    Easter - III or IV
    Feast Days ad libitum (can be a great way to keep I & III fresh through the weeks of IV)
  • I wouldn't mind hearing the rationale NihilNominis.
  • Sure! It partly grows out of what I inherited. For Green Sundays, my predecessor had taught Credo IV very well and used it regularly, and I had *no* issue with it being the regular Credo as (1) I already preferred it to the other settings of the Credo, and (2) the people sang it extremely well.

    Bear in mind, that is our *default* setting, but over the long stretches I will switch it up from time to time with one of the other two, to keep them fresh and to prevent too much of a 1-to-1 association of Credo with either a penitential or festival season.

    Credo I during penitential seasons strikes me as appropriate because it is in many ways the most austere, and also because I have always viewed penitential seasons as a time when the Church invites us both on the level of our spiritual lives, and in our liturgical praxis, to go back to basics and focus on what is most essential -- so we use those weeks to ensure that the "authentic tone" of the Credo is well-known by the faithful, 'going back to basics' as it were.

    Using it on the occasional feast day and Green Sunday helps make sure it doesn't come to carry too penitential of a connotation.

    Credo III fits well into the Christmas season because the primary chant Glorias we will hear during that season here are IX and VIII, and it lives in a similar sonority. It also pairs well with a lot of polyphony and later music, being more major-key, and less modal, and often invites polyphonic interpolation of, e.g., the Et incarnatus est on feast days of Our Lady, so it fits well into Eastertide, which tends to have more polyphonic content.
  • I'm not disagreeing but I am interested that you'd want to prevent close association between a particular credo and a feast day or time of year. Why not rather encourage association and resonance with the people of your parish? Is this basically a kind of humility and concession to the fact that different places do things differently?

  • smt
    Posts: 65
    How do you introduce such things (an unknown Credo or a new Mass setting) to the parish? @NihilNominis you say your predecessor "had taught Credo IV"? Does that happen before or after mass? I find it difficult to find an occasion where a) you have the parish gathered and b) you do not distract from the mass.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,793
    We would just get the choir to sing it for a few weeks and then the congregation will follow. I you live in the land of people must sing everything, every Mass, I would teach it to a children's choir, and then get them to sing it a few times.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,383
    Yes. We introduced Mass IV by doing it for a few Masses in October-November. They haven’t quite gotten it but they at least know the Kyrie well. I put out booklets for those Masses.

    I’d do the same with IX. I love Mass XI, it’s my favorite other than IV, but I would sacrifice it to teach a new Mass.

    Now YMMV. Our people are enthusiastic.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • I vote for Cardinalis, having heard it sung several times with full throated participation (but with the caveat that where it is sung in Portland, Oregon is, shall we say, rarefied). Same place has also used, in the distant past, Credo VII, which is "dirt simple."
    https://gregobase.selapa.net/chant.php?id=7915
    This has come up before (2010), but the links are broken, so see this for an organ accompaniment.
    https://cloudhymnal.org/view/632/credo-vii-organ
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,383
    I don't find Credo VII to be simple; we always found it tough because the musical accents are in the wrong place with respect to the textual accent in a way that is not usually the case for formulaic, syllabic chant.
  • There are AT LEAST two Credos that are enumerated as number 7. As to difficulty, to each their own.
  • I only know of the Credo VII linked above. Where would I be able to find alternate versions? You've piqued my curiosity.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,383
    ^this. I'm only familiar with the one Credo VII.

    As to difficulty, to each their own.
    You know, I'm not always the easiest person online to deal with (I maintain, and at least one good friend from this forum acknowledges, that this is a defect of the medium leading to my real personality being greatly obscured), but at least I'm aware of this problem.

    So don't mind if I am taken aback by the tone.
  • Some of the links in this thread are broken, but the information on Credo VII is there.
    https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/2690/credo-vii-not-a-typo/p1
    Thanked by 1OMagnumMysterium
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,793
    We also have the two Credo from the Spanish Supplement to the Kyriale, https://mega.nz/file/mJxkFaaJ#GaElCkVh4XUev8A4z3XOm5CMFmwdDCVwPaAA7Tjju_8
    from here,
    https://www.verbumgloriae.es/recursos/libros/

    The Kyriale No. 714 Desclee 1961 has a 13th c. Credo VII. but the thread above has another Credo VII (not set by Solesmes )
    Thanked by 1OMagnumMysterium
  • Thanks! The Credos fascinate me, and it's good to have another one to throw on the pile. I've heard there are hundreds of cantus fractus Credos in the Giunta Gradual and other books ~ 13-17th century. I haven't been able to find any pdfs of such books, but if anyone knows of any, please send them my way! I already have the Spanish Credos, but those are great to consider as well.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • I was looking at the SSPX's Traditional Catholic Hymnal and noticed that it doesnt contain Credo II. Does anyone know if there is possibly a musical or historical rationale for that?
  • Credo II is fairly similar to Credo I, and shares a lot of melodic material. Two pieces which have the same words, and much similar melodic material, but some differences, are more likely be be sung incorrectly, especially by those who are singing primarily from memory rather than comprehension of a score. The shared material between two such pieces may cause false memory cues, which then could lead to mistakes in the places where the melodies do differ. This may have been the reason for Credo II's exclusion from the SSPX hymnal, but I cannot say for sure.
    Thanked by 1Chant_Supremacist
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,383
    Well my guess is that it’s the underlying reason for it being less popular and therefore its lack of popularity led to its exclusion. That said, I am comfortable with using Credo V with a congregation rather than making III a seasonal credo (my ideal would be Credo V on solemn feasts and in Paschal Time), but I recognize that it’s close to I which might make it an uphill battle.
    Thanked by 1Chant_Supremacist
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,793
    We sing I on Feasts and II in Advent and Lent. The Congregation can cope with this...
    Thanked by 1Chant_Supremacist
  • I don't think Credo II is less popular than VI or VII. That's just my personal impression.

    But years ago when I attended the SSPX in Quebec, Credo II was actually one of their staples, with I and III. I have a feeling (FWIW) that they excluded it to positively steer their missions away from it. So I find the idea that it's "too similar" to I more compelling, although I personally find Credo II very distinct. It still feels like a very strong move that some melodic similarity doesnt fully account for.

    In any case this is all speculation, but I'm quite curious about it. Maybe I can contact someone who worked on the hymnal.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,383
    I’ve never heard II in the wild. Maybe the SSPX used it more in some places. But yes, not including II would serve to exclude it for whatever reason.

    I don’t think that VI or VII are more popular. They’re all pretty much relegated to novelties at most for most of us. I, III, and IV dominate. And understandably.
    Thanked by 1Chant_Supremacist
  • francis
    Posts: 10,866
    Best? I think that is a totally subjective question. Popular, easy or unusual might be better gauges for determining an outcome.
    Thanked by 1a_f_hawkins
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,824
    I & IV both have votes from Cavazzoni. I still haven't gotten around to Isaac's alternatim.
  • Credo I for historical reasons. A case could be made for "what everyone knows" (III) though.

    We have done I-V since COVID, in numerical alternation. We'd been doing I, III and IV, and since I had to solo-cantor and people weren't supposed to sing anyway, I did all 6.

    Not much love for Credo VI here.

    I can't make it work for me. It would need a style of performance where the phrase extensions were clearly cantillations.
  • I am partial to the "Missa Regia" Creed.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,824
    Isaac is a more interesting case than I had imagined: his Credos are mostly through-composed, only the 4 masses in Choralis Constantius III being alternatim. But he draws on more melodies than are found in Solesmes, only one of the 13 in BSB ms 53 resembling Credo I. Many more exotic tunes come from the Graduale pataviense and St Gall 546, a c. 1515 source with many 'ferial' Credos placing "Amen" after "et homo factus est". One labeled "Feria quarta pulchrum" seems to be the one designated "de martyribus" by Isaac (or rather by the printer Formschneider). Here's a page from my project in progress:
    CredoMartyribusIsaacPage1.pdf
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  • We would just get the choir to sing it for a few weeks and then the congregation will follow.

    Why assume the people in the pews are musically incompetent and need to wait a few weeks to listen to the choir sing it?
    Thanked by 2tomjaw CHGiffen
  • @Richard Mix

    Funny you should mention it, I was just having a look through the Cantus Fractus settings of the Credo in St. Gall 546 last night! Is there a place online where one might view this Graduale pataviense you speak of?
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,824
    The Passau Gradual is an imperfect match for the Choralis Constantinus repertory, but as close as it seems possible to come for the present. I have xeroxes from the facsimile volume of Das Erbe deutscher Musik, but now one can enjoy it in glorious color.

    Does anyone have insights on the abbreviated Creeds?
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Thanks. That Gradual is interesting. I find it noteworthy that some books, like the Passau and SG 546, contain both cantus fractus and plainchant. So I would presume that at certain times and places throughout history, chant was sung with both rhythmic and equalist rhythms for different pieces, by the same singers. The books don't give much of an indication of whether the plainchant was sung with a simple equal rhythm, or whether there were understood conventions for rhythmic variation, whether that be based on the text, the neume patterns, phrases, or otherwise.

    I remember reading about the abbreviated Credos a bit ago, but most of it I've half forgotten. Let me see if I can find which paper discussed it.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw Richard Mix
  • Hmm, I've had a look through my collection of papers, and can't seem to find what I remember. The only thing I could really find was in Harrison Basil Russin's dissertation. It's a nice (albeit long) read, and I found a lot of insight from it, although I take his speculation with a grain of salt.

    On page 273 he says: "Another liturgical phenomenon is the abbreviation of the Credo in many musical sources—both polyphonic and monophonic. It is possible that these truncations are connected to liturgical devotion of a particular feast day, especially when the truncated Credos end at liturgically significant words (like “Ex Maria Virgine” or “Et Homo Factus Est.”)."

    What I thought I remembered reading somewhere was that certain Credos were composed just through “Et Homo Factus Est.” and then the rest of the Credo was either just spoken, done recto tono, or omitted. And perhaps that this truncation was customary for ferias or lower-class liturgical days. I vaguely remember having the sentiment of "well, that's an unedifying custom that we don't particularly need to revive." But I could just be mistaken in my memory, maybe I am getting mixed up with something else.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,824
    I've since come across Harrison Russin's lecture, part of a very interesting conference & playlist Rhythm in Music and the Arts in the Late Medieval Period Conference, Prague, November 2020
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