Someone who has a doctorate has proof that they have pursued a course of study and completed it to the satisfaction of the institution. Here in Athens, TN that means that a singer can get a BS in music with their performance specialty being barbershop quartet singing.

I am not kidding. He's a friend.

Most Catholic people doing music have no training. And it shows. Or have had the training but are so negative about everything that all of their education is negated because of their attitudes.

Protestant churches sometimes pay better and sometimes do not....it is just that Catholic churches are famous for it as well as elevating non-musicians ti elated status in spite of an inability to write proper verse and do anything more than make pretty sounds on a guitar.

True... Bach did not have a degree. An applicant for a position who comes from a historically renowned family of musicians and has completed 10-15 years of apprenticeship with Johann Christoph Bach and personal lessons with George Bohm should be allowed to offer that in lieu of a degree.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Ludwig_Krebs

[...]
From a technical standpoint, Krebs was unrivaled next to Bach in his organ proficiency. However, it was quite difficult for Krebs to obtain a patron or a post at any cathedral. This can be attributed to the fact that by this time the Baroque tradition was being left behind in favor of the new galant music style.
[...]
Krebs was so desperate at the time that he did not work for money but instead for food to feed his family (including seven children).
[...]

I have a "terminal", that is doctoral degree in "church music" and organ. It is important because it demonstrates that I've taken the time to pursue my craft in a systematic, disciplined manner. However, most of what I've truly learned (apart from valuable exposure to repertoire and technique) with respect to sacred music and its application come from areas other than my degree work.

I've learned a great deal about the "Mind of the Church" by reading the documents of the Holy See, the writings of the Holy Fathers and the many learned commentaries by people well known to this august group. It is because I learned how to read and study documents in my degree work that I'm now able to closely read and systematically study these documents and writings and distill the information down to a usable body of knowledge. Can someone develop these skills outside an academic pursuit? Absolutely, but certainly the doctoral degree counts as being the place where I cut my academic and scholarly teeth.

I've also learned a great deal from experience, which is something you can't discount either. Many a "music director" with multiple degrees and no real, down and gritty experience in the trenches of parish work fail as a result of the lack of experience, for they know not how to balance theory and practice.

Working for the church is noble. Obtaining an advanced degree is noble as well. If we don't put a value on degrees earned as a part of the equation for determining a just wage, we are in essence saying that a degree has no value. That being the case, there's no point in getting one.

Not to send the thread down a rabbit hole, and at the risk of bringing the hot wrath of some on the board down on me, I must observe that this whole notion of degree and level of education not being equal to the amount of money one should be able to make in their field based on that level of degree earned is dangerously close to the egalitarianism proposed by some who suggest that primary health care should be free, and primary care physicians should not be permitted to make a profit. The question becomes where does one go to find a well-trained, qualified primary care physician if they all leave the field because they can't recoup the investment they made in their training in the first place?

We reap what we sew, and one thing many have lost sight of is the dark world of unintended consequences.

P.S. Also, any discussion disparaging the value of a degree or pursuit of formal study renders null and void any legitimacy to the discussion surrounding the foolish and insultingly simple "competency standards" for the various fields (cantor, organist, director of music ministries) on other threads. Poorly-trained people can achieve apaullingly low standards, which the status quo then labels as laudatory and worthy of certification, at which point the quality of everything circles the drain.

Don Roy, I whole-heartedly agree that 'this anti formal education thing is getting to be pretty scary'.

I don't expect a wildly large salary, but I do expect that nine years of blood, sweat and tears in music school (BM and MM) counts for something. I know there are more and less serious programs out there, but how very cheeky to think that music degrees automatically don't matter!

Some people are convinced that the 'talent fairy' exists, waving her wand at special folks. An architect develops skill through rigorous training, a sculptor or stained-glass maker studies for years with great mentors, but church musicians? Guess they have it somehow dumped on them!?!

Aristotle, I think you bring up some valuable criticism. I agree with you especially as regards apprenticeship, though I think it can be highly valuable in an academic setting, or outside it. Relationships forged with great professors have served me well.

One thing I do not like to see happening is Catholic church musicians shunning academia and vice-versa to the point that sacred music is even furthered removed from academic programs. Ties need to be made and maintained in secular universities for lots of reasons, one being to attract some great musicians to sacred music, and ultimately to the Faith.

Also, coming from San Diego, how I wish we had your manicured lawns- LOL!

I don't think these discussions have to stay on a theoretical plane. What we're really talking about is the optimal preparation for a parish musician. Maybe it could be possible in the future for some folks to do something practical in this regard, and it seems to me that sorting out what that preparation should be, in the best case scenario, is an important step in figuring out what a school/ training center/ course of study would look like.

Ideally, parishes and dioceses would nurture and encourage young musicians while they're coming up, and there would be some sort of program to help us older folks get the skills we missed out on.

I gather that my diocese has some sort of music workshop for teenage musicians, for example. Although the actual program sounds pretty lame, it's still a lot more than what they used to have (ie, nothing).

It would be nice if cathedrals or parishes with strong music programs could host music workshops like CMAA does, even if on a smaller scale. Even if it was just some kind of "get together and increase repertoire while having a picnic", that would be something.

It would also be nice if a group of parishes could offer music classes in stuff like sightreading or group voice training. I mean, complaining about those of us who didn't learn is not exactly doing anything, and they don't offer that stuff out at the county rec center. (Fencing and aikido, yes. Solfege, no.) Heck, I'd go and pay good money for it, if it weren't too far away.

Another thing that would be useful would be some kind of window into the music skills world. I didn't take voice lessons or music lessons as a child, didn't take band, and neither did anybody I know well. So I have absolutely no idea what sort of music training my area offers, outside of college course catalogs. Luciano Pavarotti could be holding masterclasses down the street from the grave, and I'd never know because I'm not in that world. I can tell you all about the local Celtic bands and sessions along with other obscure musical info, but not that.

If I'd been born into a Mormon family, all sorts of musical opportunities would have been provided for me locally and elsewhere, and indeed it would have been hard to escape advanced voice and sightreading training. We don't need to prioritize music that much; but it should be something routinely known about and available to parish kids and adults.