Is it necessary to announce the hymn if everything is in the worship aid?
  • CatholicZ09
    Posts: 271
    I always find it unnecessary to announce the hymns if everything is printed in the worship aid, but maybe I’m wrong.
    Thanked by 1Brian Michael Page
  • TCJ
    Posts: 973
    One reason I like making worship aids is that I can skip the announcements. If people can't be bothered to look at what's on the page that was handed to them going in, why would they pick up a hymnal and go through all the work of flipping through pages to find a hymn in time to sing the final few words?
    Thanked by 1Brian Michael Page
  • PaxMelodious
    Posts: 428
    Probably depends on your community.

    Me, I hate announcements. I'd rather make things obvious - and I prefer projection or large screens, provided it fits the architecture (some churches, it just Doesn't).

    But if your congregation is used to announcement's, it will be a long hard road to phase them out.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,943
    I had a large wooden board with big numbers to the side of the altar area. The congregation could then find the selections in the hymnal. The pastor would never have allowed announcements.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,001
    We don’t announce anything, and our ordinary goes on the hymn board.
  • Diapason84
    Posts: 75
    I thought that the worshipping assembly could only fully participate by having a cantor wave his or her hands in front of them and announce every number and detail. The hymns and Mass parts would ideally have many short, simple refrains because that is the only way the community will build community. /sarc

    In my prior positions, we didn’t have worship leaflets although I prefer those. Announcements of any kind during the Mass are highly frustrating and invasive.
  • tandrews
    Posts: 161
    Is it necessary to announce the hymn if everything is in the worship aid?

    No.
  • DavidOLGCDavidOLGC
    Posts: 75
    Our pastor had the choir leader stop announcing the hymns a few months ago. So far, so good!
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,170
    I'd prefer to dispense with announcing the numbers when people can read them on the hymn boards, but giving the number seems to help more people prepare.
  • Magdalene
    Posts: 10
    We have a number board. I announce only the opening hymn and closing hymn so there's no disrupting the flow of the actual Mass. Nothing is announced at funerals or weddings.
    Thanked by 1Brian Michael Page
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,369
    A mass free of irritating, tacky, and insulting non-ritual interruptions which break the ritual flow is the very purpose of the mass folders or hymn boards.
  • TCJ
    Posts: 973
    A mass free of irritating and insulting non-ritual interruptions which break the ritual flow is the purpose of the mass folders or hymn board.


    But then you exclude all the people who have too poor of vision to see the hymn board from the back but refuse to sit close enough to see so they can then complain about it.
  • CGM
    Posts: 687
    Is it necessary to announce the hymn if everything is in the worship aid?

    At our parish all the music is indicated in the worship aid (hymnal citations for hymns and the Mass Ordinary, translations of motets, etc.), but the pastor insists that the hymns be announced anyway. From what I can tell up in the loft, we may have a bit more congregational singing on the hymns than on the Mass parts, so perhaps the announcements have the desired effect of encouraging congregants to sing.
    Thanked by 1mattebery
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,746
    I thought that the worshipping assembly could only fully participate by having a cantor wave his or her hands in front of them and announce every number and detail.
    I always thought it was the intimidating eye contact from the animator cantrix.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw CharlesW
  • NihilNominisNihilNominis
    Posts: 988
    A good transition -- at the beginning of Mass, announce that everything is found in the service folder, and that there will be no further announcements.

    Once that's got into their bones, dispense with that announcement, too.
  • Fully agree with Nihil - "Please consult the Mass Guide".
    BMP
  • davido
    Posts: 889
    We have no announcements and no worship aid. Hymn numbers are on the board. People sing when they want to sing
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,746
    I’ve long believed that if regular Mass goers haven’t figured it out by now, announcements will be to no avail. People who like singing sing, and those who don’t, don’t no matter what you say or do.

    Explanations from time to time, as well as the occasional learning/practice session before Mass can help, however. People who like to participate but hesitate are often grateful. You just have to be careful not to abuse the privilege.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,001
    I don't really recommend practicing before Mass, from experience, but I do think that encouragement from the pulpit or via the bulletin helps.
    Thanked by 2LauraKaz DavidOLGC
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,746
    encouragement from the pulpit or via the bulletin helps
    This is definitely true. The PiPs need to be taught about what their liturgical role is, and why it is important for them to sing. (Not to be confused, of course, with “participatio actuosa” which may or may not occur in conjunction with singing.)

    In my experience, people appreciate being taught, too. In fact, I just received an email yesterday from someone thanking me for my “music minute” that was in last Sunday’s worship aid.
    Thanked by 2LauraKaz CHGiffen
  • davido
    Posts: 889
    I will occasionally announce hymns at a funeral. When I do, there is always more participation. The visitors seem to need a little encouragement
    Thanked by 2Liam DavidOLGC
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,746
    Davido, I think you're on the mark with this one. Typically, funeral goers have no idea what's going on. (Same for weddings) These days, most of them aren't even catholic. They don't know the responses, when to sit or stand... anything, really, and we no longer live in a once-but-no-longer heavily catholic culture where people still have a vague idea bout church going. These days, either you come regularly, or your lost.

    For funerals, I think there are two approaches:
    1.) your approach of inviting people to participate if they can figure it out with a little guidance, or,
    2.) just chanting propers and making a musical offering from the loft, and let them just absorb it.

    For my part, I tend toward option 2. Certain families obsess over picking hymns because they want to sing at the funeral, but lots of people only have a vague idea of what they think of as "comfort music" and the particulars are really left to the musicians. They want to hear the music while they grieve, but not make it.

    Anecdotally, I've had multiple families tell me that they LOVED hearing the In Paradisum chanted in english. They weren't interested in singing. They just wanted to be consoled by something beautiful and august. The chant filled a need they didn't know they had. (In fact, many people bristle before a funeral if I press the point of chanting during the incensation because they are so used to the four hymn sandwich that they don't really see the point in acquiescing to chant, but after they experience it, the logic reveals itself)
  • CatholicZ09
    Posts: 271
    Funerals I can understand the hand-holding. I’ve been the cantor for several funerals where the family is either not Catholic or lapsed. Many of them haven’t been to Mass since before the new translation was implemented, so you get some “And also with you”s at the start before they catch on that…things have changed. It’s awkward, but we make the best of it.

    My whole thing with announcements during a typical Sunday Mass is it gives some cantors the idea that they need to be animators, as someone pointed out. I’ve seen many parishes where they even ad-lib certain things and try to add little jokes, and it’s just like…stick to the script, please. I’ve not seen this at my home parish but have caught it on many livestreams. It irks me that the role of the cantor has to be this big thing to some people.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,697
    Almost always, no
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,771
    Just back from First Communion and a full church including all the school faculty. Not a single voice joined me for 4 verses of "At the Lamb's high feast" in spite of the standard announcement "Please rise as you are able for the procession and lift your voices: hymn number NNN". Next time it'll have to be either a chanted Introit or "Good morning and welcome to St David's. In the pew rack in front of you is a brown Book. Please open it. Turn to number 256. When you look ready the organ will play an introduction. When it pauses briefly, please inhale, and then…"
  • davido
    Posts: 889
    Which takes us back to: people either want to sing, or they don’t.
  • PaxMelodious
    Posts: 428
    What happened at the practice, did the school choir sing it with you then?
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,385
    Special events are often difficult because of the presence of a large proportion of non-regulars. Apart from the Entrance did congregation/clergy/choir sing anything?
  • CatholicZ09
    Posts: 271
    Richard, if it’s anything like my home parish where the first communicants process in with the ministers, I guarantee most in attendance were looking at the kids and/or taking pictures and paying no mind to the hymn.
  • Reval
    Posts: 181
    I'm going to be honest - when I first went to a Catholic Mass, I was shocked to see that "the bulletin" was full of ads and news. ("Why do the Catholics commercialize everything? They can't afford their own bulletin without selling ads?") I was expecting an "order of service" or something similar (more like a recital program / folded half-sheet) that I had seen as a Lutheran, that gave the text of the prayers, the hymn titles, etc.
    Why not just print the hymn numbers / other helpful info in the bulletin? We're giving everyone some paper every week, why not put something helpful in there?
    There are probably a lot of good reasons why not, I realize.
    Thanked by 1mattebery
  • francis
    Posts: 10,697
    I know this may cause an updraft, but I have a paradigm shift for our reflection.

    Don’t you feel the pips shouldn’t feel forced to sing or be “forced” to do anything, for that matter, during the Mass?

    Isn’t it true that Mother church does not expect sitting, standing or kneeling to happen from everyone at the same time? Is it also not true that some parishes will have different gifts, different strengths, and different resources?

    Perhaps this is why over the course of time the expression “to hear Mass” came to be. I would put forward that the modern church has perpetuated the fabricated mode of liturgical homogenization.

    Could it be, perhaps, that pips shouldn’t feel guilty If they’re NOT singing? Or that they be looked down upon if OUR expectations as clerics or ministers are not met?

    Over the centuries, the church makes room as it knows that people are in different places at different times in their lives. Someone that lost a loved one yesterday isn’t going to want to sing tomorrow. And maybe not a month from now… And maybe not a year from now. (At a minimum, I believe It is expected we stand for the Gospel and perhaps kneel for the consecration.)

    Health (or lack of ability to even sing at all) may prevent singing, posture or the so called “actual participation”. In fact, isn’t it true that only the priest is necessary for the Sacrifice as was true in the old law?

    Do we perhaps need to reevaluate the balance in liturgical practice?
  • PhilipPowell
    Posts: 111
    I think it’s clear in Scripture that we are required to use our bodies to glorify God and singing is a certainly a key part of that. Simply taking the minimal effort to open up the hymnal and sing is the least one could do to fulfill Vatican II’s request for active participation in the Mass. Congregational singing, in a very basic way, is an outside sign of inward reality that “I care enough”.

    As to those who are tone deaf or have health issues, our parochial vicar says, “God gave you that voice, so punish Him with it!”
  • Bombarde16
    Posts: 123
    I think we should remember that "Full, Active, Conscious Participation" does not mean just the external.

    We do not announce the hymn, but we do use hymn boards and print the hymn citations (numbers, names, etc) in the Bulletin. We do occasionally use worship aids. We announce hymns for Weddings, and occasionally for funerals (if the family is mostly out-of-towners).

    When we stopped announcing hymns, I prepped the pips by reminding them that we should first bring our prayer to God. It is wonderful if that prayer is uniting together in song, but it's also okay if you are praying your own prayers during certain points. (For example: during the offertory (when I'm not working), I offer my prayers and offerings of soul, spirit, mind, and self to God, then (if there is time) I join in song. Same at Communion... I offer my prayers of thanksgiving for what has just been received, and then I sing... I encouraged the people to do the same (without necessarily using myself as the example).

    The worst thing we can do is just blindly sing, just because that's what everyone else is doing... There is nothing sacrificial, or active, or conscious, or truly participatory about mindlessly singing a hymn, Antiphon, etc. while we are thinking about what to eat for lunch, or how much longer we have to sit in the pew....

    The Council's exhortation is, first and foremost, a sacrifice of self (and a dying of the same) to the worship of God in the most Holy Mass. If one does not have the inner disposition, how can the outward disposition be pleasing to God, even if it results in a beautiful and robustly sung hymn?

    That is not to say that if one knows that their inner disposition is lacking, but they offer that as a sacrifice and sing in order to orient themselves to the Mass, that they are of a poor disposition, and can't offer themselves properly... That is an entirely different situation, wherein the person is completely CONSCIOUS of their state and are working to pray, even when the flesh is weak. In this case, by all means, sing every note, whether on pitch, or not, so that you may offer yourself, your apathy, your sloth back to God, that he might impart graces unto you to offer more pleasing worship to Him.

    (Still in my first year as a new Catholic from being a LCMS fella.... Be gentle in correction, I'm happy to learn if anything I said is off base....)
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,001
    My only contention is that the external can and does redirect the internal, which is why the lukewarm left after the council.

    But of course it’s always better to be better disposed interiorly!
  • francis
    Posts: 10,697
    fulfill Vatican II’s request for active participation in the Mass. Congregational singing, in a very basic way, is an outside sign of inward reality that “I care enough”.

    (Open Updraft)
    1. I don’t believe it is the church’s wish to “fulfill V2’s request.”
    2. Singing hymns at mass is not a part of tradition.
    (Close Updraft)

    3. I say all this with the caveat as one who has actually published a hymnal to be used at Mass and is a composer of hymns and chorales. However, it is only for the entrance and recessional, (and possibly a communion meditation for the Novus Ordo.)

    NOTE: TLM does not include anything in the vernacular after the Introit or before the Last Gospel.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • francis
    Posts: 10,697
    the lukewarm left after the council.

    ???
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,746
    Singing hymns at mass is not a part of tradition.
    broadly speaking, this is true, although there actually are traditions of hymn singing in Germanic countries. I read a fascinating article on JSTOR about music in the wake of the council of Trent, and one of the things it talked about was the long-antecedent practice of hymn singing in place of propers on high holy days as a special treat to the people.
    Thanked by 1DavidOLGC
  • francis
    Posts: 10,697
    broadly speaking, this is true, although there actually are traditions of hymn singing in Germanic countries. I read a fascinating article on JSTOR about music in the wake of the council of Trent, and one of the things it talked about was the long-antecedent practice of hymn singing in place of propers on high holy days as a special treat to the people.
    Perhaps in the German tradition? Would like to know where you read about this. In general, this is not the norm.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,001
    I'm just going to say this once: a flurry of question marks is the least likely way to get me to respond as I have no earthly way of understanding what is confusing or a potential objection.

    In any case, it seems fairly self-evident that taking away exterior forms and disciplines (Friday abstinence) that marked Catholics as Catholic and reminded people of the truth went away and so there was nothing to stop the flood.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw ServiamScores
  • PhilipPowell
    Posts: 111
    I don’t believe it is the church’s wish to “fulfill V2’s request.”

    I certainly agree. I think I just find the idea behind this particular request justified and fairly applicable to congregational singing, which I think has become a viable part of tradition. Just my half of a cent.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,967
    Humanae Vitae was a huge non-liturgical/formal factor, too. The advent of the Pill before the council quickly created a division in confessional praxis and what might be called a "revolution of changing expecations", before any liturgical changes. My own mother, among others, not contracepting but aware of lines of wives (almost always the wives, my mother mordantly noted; the husbands largely didn't treat it as confessional matter because the wives were taking the Pill albeit typically with their husbands' cooperation, as it were) in line for the "pastoral" confessors, as it were.
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • francis
    Posts: 10,697
    I don’t know what “the luke warm left after the council” means. Please explain.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,385
    Not my phrase francis,
    but I note that Cardinal Heenan warned after a demonstration of the new Missa Normativa, that while in England Catholic men attended Sunday Mass in good numbers it was mostly Low Mass, and that any attempt to 'embellish' it with singing would drive them away.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,967
    The explanation I remember from talking to older members of what might terms the Irish Catholic auxiliary of Cold Roast Boston is what they missed most was how rapidly the Low Mass without singing could be dispatched. That Sunday Mass now lasted ~45-60 minutes, and consequently a thinned timetable of available Mass times, was something to be endured by them.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,001
    I just think that when you clearly seem to be not as serious — even if you strenuously object to the notion that “we no longer believe that” — and when there are fewer physical reminders of truth, like genuflecting or kneeling and signs of the cross, people quit. I have heard a lot of stories about average people (mostly men in their twenties but not only) who have typical problems were like “what is this?” and saw such a sharp contrast they walked out and would profess the Creed if pushed — there’s only one game in town — but are so damaged that they won’t darken a Catholic church again.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,697
    @MatthewRoth

    I am sorry I just do not understand what you’re talking about from your post immediately above. It seems cryptic to me. Can you be more black and white?
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,715
    while in England Catholic men attended Sunday Mass in good numbers it was mostly Low Mass, and that any attempt to 'embellish' it with singing would drive them away.

    Colin Mawby gave a talk to us on this very topic, some context. The good Cardinal was accustomed to stand at the back of the various churches in the City of London. He noticed that not only the presence of many men, but that most of them gave up their breakfast or lunch break to attend Mass. A longer Mass would be impossible for them to attend and get back to work in time.
    A Low Mass said in a timely manner is vital to the working man and woman, so they can attend Mass and get to work on time.
    Thanked by 2a_f_hawkins Viola
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,001
    I don’t care much for the concept of progressive solemnity not only because “solemnity” meant “deacon and subdeacon” and more flowers and nicer things (plus, at Lauds and Vespers, it determined the number of coped assistants who assisted in a similar manner to the Mass ministers, and the senior assistant then exposes the Sanctissimum after Vespers if he is a deacon or priest) and wasn’t a musical concept but because it makes the length of Mass unstable. I recently read about a priest who chants more of the Mass and adds more music (it seems to be hymns, the Ordinary, English chant…) according to the rank of the day. But his main Mass is at noon!

    So if you want that, have an early-morning Mass (it’s not a grave sin to leave after communion if you absolutely must, but 6:00 is not that bad for most people who need to leave for work) and or an evening one (I don’t like evening Mass as it inverts the liturgical day and requires a weaker eucharistic fast, and it’s also harder on people…).
  • francis
    Posts: 10,697
    @MattewRoth

    Thanks for your response