Mass setting selection
  • jaffurss
    Posts: 1
    Looking for discussion and information on approved Mass settings (by the Secretariat of the USCCB). How do I know if a Mass setting is approved beyond just assuming that if it is published it is approved. Also, how do parishes select the Mass setting that they use? Is it up to the musicianship ability of the church's music ministry?
  • lmassery
    Posts: 422
    I trust my own judgment on what is appropriate for Mass more than I trust bishops and the USCCB. Use good quality sacred music and theologically sound hymns, and don’t worry about permission. No one is policing this issue.
    Thanked by 5irishtenor OMagnumMysterium tomjaw ServiamScores LauraKaz
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,886
    Frankly, there are many things that are “approved” that shouldn’t have been, so that is hardly a sure guide.
    Thanked by 5MarkB tomjaw M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen LauraKaz
  • Marc Cerisier
    Posts: 537
    USCCB approval refers only to their verifying that the text used in the setting matches the text that is to be used. Nothing more.
    Thanked by 8ServiamScores MarkB irishtenor CHGiffen mattebery LauraKaz Joseph Michael Roborgelmeister
  • francis
    Posts: 10,821
    As Marc said, approval only goes for the text. On the music, the sky is the limit so NO ONE discerns its suitability for the liturgy. If it in English (or another vernacular) and it mimics Gregorian Chant in style, that is a much safer bet to be appropriate for the liturgy.
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,886
    FWIW— you even have to be careful with imprimaturs, sadly. I had one “Catholic” prayer book with an imprimatur and the book contained — I kid you not — prayers to the Egyptian pharaoh Amenhotep IV, Hindu prayers, Muslim prayers, and even a “Chaldean incantation” (yes, that was literally how it was labeled). Many scales fell from my eyes the day I paged through that book. “Catholic book publishing corp.” my arse. Imprimaturs are only as orthodox as the person granting them.
    Thanked by 5tomjaw OMagnumMysterium LauraKaz Joseph Michael DavidOLGC
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,311
    Yeah…

    also, yes, I think that musicianship matters. Preference matters; sometimes, this equates to "we do the same thing (almost) every Sunday, let's change it." Sometimes, it's aesthetic; the Mass setting that we did for a while when the translation changed in 2011 is very Anglican to me, or in another direction, French (Messiaen, Duruflé…) which is perhaps a hard sell, but it has a certain elegance and flexibility.

    The desire to change every now and again is in tension with getting people familiar with something which they discover that they like well enough. Seasons matter; those at the TLM, or at a Latin NO, will be more used to switching a couple three or four or more times a year (Advent and Lent, ordinary Sundays with green vestments, and then Christmas and/or Easter and other major feasts in some way — many are used to more!). Most parishes switch less often than that, but I think that following the spirit of the kyriale is worthwhile at the very least, as the kyriale provides the chant settings which are deemed suitable for various seasons or occasions, often based on the way that they were collected historically, but only weekdays of Advent, Lent, and a handful of other occasions have an obligatory setting.

    My longtime home parish, did a mix of all sorts of things: some chant in Advent and in Lent, the missal chants (mostly the Gloria and Sanctus and Agnus Dei…), lots of Proulx. The setting mentioned above was composed by a local DM, and its usage was encouraged diocesan-wide as the translation changed. Then I went to FUS, where the settings were fixed to each Mass time or occasion, but there were a lot of them, of varying quality.

    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • OMagnumMysterium
    Posts: 259
    only weekdays of Advent, Lent, and a handful of other occasions have an obligatory setting.

    Could you show the legislation which requires this? My understanding has always been that there is never one single "obligatory" setting, even for Lenten Ferias and the like.
    Thanked by 4tomjaw francis LauraKaz NihilNominis
  • CatholicZ09
    Posts: 284
    We do a mix of settings throughout the year, and we rarely do the entire setting of any Mass setting.

    Some dioceses have a list of Mass settings they urge their parishes to use. I know those lists were common when the Roman Missal changed in 2011, but it’s really up to each parish here in the U.S.
    Thanked by 1hilluminar
  • francis
    Posts: 10,821
    It is my understanding one can use any part of the Kyriale at any time, but the suggestion for certain celebrations is somewhat common.
    Thanked by 3OMagnumMysterium hilluminar Joseph Michael
  • OMagnumMysterium
    Posts: 259
    It is my understanding one can use any part of the Kyriale at any time, but the suggestion for certain celebrations is somewhat common.

    That was my understanding as well. Some chant Masses, like the Requiem, would be very strange to replace with a different chant Mass (at least according to our sensibilities and what we are used to), but obviously the Requiem chant Mass from the Graduale is not positively required, because polyphonic settings have been composed (and used) as well.
    Thanked by 1hilluminar
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,311
    The rubric is after Credo IV in both the Liber Usualis and in the Vatican Edition. So it’s not that something made up by Dom Mocquereau.

    And I misremembered. It’s all ferial days which take the Mass as assigned.

    I meant to point out too that, while following the weekday-Sunday-feast hierarchy is good (and so you wouldn’t use Mass XVIII on Sunday if you are capable) this restriction is not strictly required by the 1974 graduale or in the Ordo Cantus Missae due to the way that the “minimum repertoire” (in reality, all too often the maximum repertoire) is constructed in Jubilate Deo.
    Thanked by 2OMagnumMysterium tomjaw
  • OMagnumMysterium
    Posts: 259
    Good to know!
  • AnimaVocis
    Posts: 150
    I find this a rather interesting thread so far, as I am looking into compiling a booklet of Mass settings for my Parish that is based on the premise of the Kyriale. (One might ask why I'm not just using the Kyriale : because I would be run out of this church, not to mention the diocese if I tried... Though I'm making good headway with truly beautiful and good music in English)...

    At the moment, we have 3 Masses that are "requested" by our Diocesan Liturgical Commission to be common amass setting for the diocese.. these are the following:

    Roman Missal Chants
    Mass of St. Frances Cabrini (Kevin Keil)
    Revised Mass of Creation

    To this, I am adding and introducing/re-introducing the following:

    Mass of the Immaculate Conception (Peter Latona; brand new, but not hard by any means)
    German Mass (Schubert/Proulx; an old friend at this parish)
    Heritage Mass (Alstott; we know this VERY well)


    In an effort to help the congregation of my parish begin to find some sense of progressive Solemnity, while at the same time trying to encourage familiarity, I am setting up a booklet, based on the idea of the Kyriale in the following Manner...

    Roman Missal Chants (English and Latin, +Mass XV Gloria, because they already know the English version, they might as well learn the Latin..): Feasts/Solemnities of the Saints, Ferias, Funerals, Sundays of Advent/Lent.

    Mass of the Immaculate Conception: Feasts/Solemnities of Our Lady, Christmastide

    Heritage Mass: Paschaltide

    Mass of Creation: Ordinary Time after Epiphany

    German Mass: Ordinary Time after Corpus Christi

    Mass of St. Frances Cabrini: Sundays at the end of the Church Year (think mid October through Christ the King)

    Is this arbitrary? Perhaps... I'm still not entirely convinced myself... But this is how we are basically using these Mass settings already... Might as well codify it and help teach the congregation a little about their tradition and why we are doing this the way we have been. It doesn't affect anything but our Parish, so what harm could it do?

    Any input is welcome, as is constructive criticism! (Note: I'm not a huge fan of Cremation or the Cabrini Masses, but they are what they are... )
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen tomjaw
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,311
    The Mass of Saint Francis which I linked above is nice. So is this Mass in Honor of St. Cecilia, also from ILP. They also have a mass with an introduction similar to the Hockey Night in Canada theme…I’m not being ironic, just pointing out that you might be able to swap one or more of those other masses and get good results with the Anglican/French-inspired music. The Gloria’s incipit is set up in both so that you could do it traditionally, as Ordinariate folks do with similar settings.
  • CatholicZ09
    Posts: 284
    Bombarde, I really like Proulx’s German Mass when the organist “moves” it. It can draaaaag if done too slowly.

    One of our favorite Glorias at my home parish is Carroll Thomas Andrews’ Gloria from A New Mass for Congregations. That’s become our go-to during Christmas and Easter and sometimes during Ordinary Time. It wasn’t received well at first, but they quickly grew to like it and will sing it loudly.

    We need a few new Glorias. I think we could easily learn Lee/Proulx’s antiphonal Gloria and Proulx’s Missa Simplex Gloria. Latona’s Gloria from his Mass of the Immaculate Conception is nice, too. I’d love to do the Missa de angelis Gloria, but I don’t think that’d fly here.
  • davido
    Posts: 942
    Mass of St Francis by Horst Buchholz. Best English mass setting.
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 338
    Parishes I have been in will sing Andrew's Gloria with gusto, and I think in many ways Fr. Krisman's adaptation of it to the new text has made it even better. Has anyone ever used the other parts of "A New Mass for Congregations"? I have never even laid eyes on the music, but I wonder if they are any good.
  • Nathan_the_Organist
    Posts: 440
    fcb, I know I looked for them one time, but I could only find them with the old translation. I don't know if they were ever redone under the new translation.
  • CatholicZ09
    Posts: 284
    Old translation: https://giamusic.com/resource/new-mass-for-congregations-a-print-g1572

    I think the Gloria only survived the new translation. I wonder if the Gloria was the most commonly used piece of music from that setting, hence why it was the only thing to “survive.”
  • Bobby Bolin
    Posts: 419
    The Lamb of God from Andrews' mass is pretty good. It takes the same melody and raises it a key each time through.
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