Puzzled about Alleluia verse
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    I'm hoping this will be a simple question....

    Looking at the 25th Sunday in Ordinary Time, Year B, September 20th, I'm trying to make sure I understand the various Propers that we should be singing. In my (English) St Joseph's Missal, the Alleluia verse is listed as this: "God has called us through the Gospel to possess the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." That's also what shows up in my OCP parish materials for the day.

    In my Gregorian Missal, the English translation of the Latin Alleluia is: "Give thanks unto the Lord, and call upon his name; declare his deeds among the nations."

    This appears to be a much bigger difference than I can attribute to just translation. So, all you experts: Why are the two different?

    CD
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    I've puzzled about this for a long time too. What's going on with the Alleluia verse?
  • Ioannes Andreades
    Posts: 310
    Can't the same thing be said about the Introit and Communion? The introits and communions in the missal and the alleluia verse in the lectionary follow the ABC year sequence, whereas the corresponding antiphons in the Grad. Rom. (and Greg. Missal) usually do not vary with the year. I know that there was a thread a while back about chant being native to the Roman liturgy, even to the O.F. I have to disagree; I don't think that the people who devised the ABC mass really cared about Greg. Chant at all and what the consequences for chant would be of their new creation.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    They are different chants, Carl. Not sure why.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    The GIRM (para. 62) says that the verse before the Gospel is to be taken from the Lectionary or the Gradual. I don't remember whether the Lectionary assigns specific verses to specific Sundays (ABC, etc.) or if it just gives a big list of verses for each liturgical season. Can someone with an copy of the Lectionary check that?

    The book Ordo Cantus Missae specifies which chants from the old 1961 Gradual are to be used on which days under the new calendar. It directs that the XXV Sunday in the new calendar gets its chants from the XIX Sunday After Pentecost in the old Gradual.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    In other words, the Alleluia verse has the same issue as the Introit and Communion? I don't think it is an ABC problem since the GR has a full ABC lineup. Just another example of this issue of 2 sets of propers? Honestly I don't see how this is sustainable over the long term. Also, I gather that there are very few who really understand this issue, much less that the 2 sets have different purposes (which is not to say exclusive purposes).
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Basically it seems to me the writers of the lectionary intended to completely do away with the old alleluia psalms (as well as the graduals) in favor of the "Gospel Acclamation" with a text drawn from and about the Gospels. I kind of see the point - some of the new acclamation texts serve their purpose (although many are just haphazard, repetitive, and strange), but as with everything else, the lack of regard for tradition is disgusting.
  • David Sullivan
    Posts: 355
    Perhaps this goes back to the notion that the Missal propers are for recited Mass, whereas the Gradual has the chants for sung Mass?

    Puzzling indeed. The 1970 Lectionary for the 25th Sunday Alleluia verse, says "see no 164." No. 164 has a list of 13 verses for Sundays of the Year, NONE of which is the one cited by Carl D from his St Joseph's Missal. I wonder where they came up with that one. My suspicion would be that there is no chant Alleluia verse for the text cited by Carl D,

    Graduale & Gregorian Missal show the verse Carl D cited--Confitemini Domino, but Jeff, I don't see a "full ABC lineup" for this one in the Graduale, so I think Confitemini gets sung every year. Yes, Chonak, the new Missal 25th Sunday has the same propers as the Liber 19th after Pentecost. I believe Solesmes did the project of rearranging the old chants for the new calendar.

    This situation has got to be a problem in introducing propers where the pastor/clergy has to be convinced. In the early 90s, a local pastor began a chant schola for a mainly English Mass. Once a year, he had a Latin Mass (1970 Missal), but when the schola director wanted to sing the Offertory chant, the pastor said no, you can't sing it because it's not in the Missal. So we had to sing a hymn instead. This from a priest who was sympathetic to chant and was implementing it in his parish!
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    "Also, I gather that there are very few who really understand this issue, much less that the 2 sets have different purposes (which is not to say exclusive purposes)."


    This is especially true in light of the fact that (A) The documents CONSTANTLY refer to the "Graduale Romanum", but (b) The 1974 Solesmes Graduale Romanum is a PRIVATE EDITION (read the Preface).

    The impression I get is that the folks who designed the New Mass did not really care about the Graduale Romanum Propers. I feel this is sad.

    One person who might be able to shed light on all this is Fr. Sam Weber --- I would be interested in his "take" on why the Alleluia verses seldom match the GR.
  • Ioannes Andreades
    Posts: 310
    Had an awesome (and more civil) comment but was logged out before I posted it and was unable to recover. VERY FRUSTRATING!!!

    Yeah, there are two sets of propers for most Sundays. Yes, this is stupid and frustrating to anyone interested in doing right by the liturgy. No, the GR normally does not have the full array of material for all Sundays of the cycle. Gavin is 100% correct.

    These might be helpful:
    GIRM 48. The singing at this time is done either alternately by the choir and the people or in a similar way by the cantor and the people, or entirely by the people, or by the choir alone. In the dioceses of the United States of America there are four options for the Entrance Chant: (1) the antiphon from the Roman Missal or the Psalm from the Roman Gradual as set to music there or in another musical setting; (2) the seasonal antiphon and Psalm of the Simple Gradual; (3) a song from another collection of psalms and antiphons, approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop, including psalms arranged in responsorial or metrical forms; (4) a suitable liturgical song similarly approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop.

    Clearly, the material in the missal is expected to be sung. Columba Kelly's chants are all from the missal, not the G.R.

    GIRM 62a: The Alleluia is sung in every season other than Lent. The verses are taken from the Lectionary or the Graduale.

    David, check out # 50 of this: http://www.adoremus.org/GIRM(music).html Your pastor was wrong.
  • Ioannes Andreades
    Posts: 310
    Check this out too: http://catholic-resources.org/Lectionary/1998USL-OrdinaryB.htm
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    If it helps any for future reference: the norms in the OCM (#13) do say that the offertory antiphon is to be sung:

    13. Post antiphonae ad offertorium cantari possunt, iuxta traditionem, versiculi, qui tamen semper omitti possunt, etiam in antiphona Domine Jesu Christe, in Missa pro defunctis. Post singulos versus resumitur pars antiphonae ad hoc indicata.

    [My unofficial translation:]

    13. After the offertory antiphon, verses can be sung according to tradition; these can also be omitted always, even in the antiphon Domine Jesu Christe in the Mass for the Dead. After each verse, part of the antiphon is repeated as is indicated.

    NOTE: The introduction and general norms from the OCM pp. 7-12 are reprinted verbatim in the 1974 Graduale pp. 7-12, so you needn't buy a copy of the OCM to get them. Since the OCM is one of the books constituting the Missale Romanum, these are binding norms.
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Ioannes,
    When you hit "post" unknowingly after you've logged out, backtrack to the previous screen and the comment box should come back up with your original text. Select "all" and copy. Select all and "paste" anew into the comment box, then hit post again. Works for me everytime.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    No biggie, but when I said that the GR has the full ABC lineup, I meant in general there is an attempt to accommodate the ABC in the GR 1974.

    I once had a long correspondence with Fr. Weber about the two set problem and their uses. He makes the point that whatever the purpose of the propers in the Missal, it can't be true that they may NOT be sung, or that if one is singing, one MUST use the GR propers. He finds that notion preposterous given the general preference for sung liturgy. So when he set the propers for the colloq English Mass, he wanted to know which propers we wanted and which translation. He was pleased to set any of them.

    The historical record is that the missal propers came about with the idea that special propers were needed for spoken Masses. Maybe that was just the excuse Gugnini used to diminish the role of the GR propers -- knowing full well that he could not throw them out altogether.

    confusing times; lots of mistakes.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    I feel that one way to solve all this would eventually be for Musica Sacra to produce an English/Latin Missal
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    Thanks for the discussion, everyone! I don't feel so dumb now, as I see others struggling with similar issues.

    In the past, I've used the Alleluia from the Gregorian Missal, usually simplifying the melody for our schola. But this year our parish purchased OCP Breaking Bread with additional Propers, so I decided to see if people are reading the translation of what we're singing. Well, in this case, they're not.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    When restoring the communion antiphons to our masses, I discussed with my good friend who posts as marymezzo, the differences between the GR and missal antiphons. She mentioned that it's better to sing the missal antiphons than to sing nothing. I agree.
  • Ioannes Andreades
    Posts: 310
    Dear Charles in CenCA,

    I tried doing that and it didn't work. Maybe if I had logged back in before trying to backtrack, I would have had some better luck. Perhaps next time, and thanks for the tip.
  • paul
    Posts: 60
    It's very irritating to try to sing the communion antiphons from the missal only to find out that there is no music for the proper text. I've learned to just depend on the CMAA for communion antiphons. No matter what it says in my Missal, THAT's the antiphon I use.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    Carl: "... St Joseph's Missal ... Gregorian Missal ... Why are the two different?"

    See article "Graduale or Missale: The Confusion Resolved" by Tietze (3 MB, right click, save)
    http://www.musicasacra.com/publications/sacredmusic/pdf/sm133-4.pdf
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    Jeff: "The 1974 Solesmes Graduale Romanum is a PRIVATE EDITION (read the Preface)."

    I think this continues the 1906 idea that
    Vaticana is the official neums
    Solesmes is the official neums plus the Solesmes signs.

    See
    Robert F Hayburn, Papal Legislation on Sacred Music 95 AD to 1977 AD
    http://www.booksforcatholics.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=B&Product_Code=0814610129&Category_Code=

    ===page 278===
    [...]
    proceedings of the provincial congress of sacred music held in Padua from June 10-12, 1906:
    [...]
    These proceedings established two important points. First any signs
    used must be separate from the notes themselves. Second, such printings
    of these signs are private editions and need the approval of the local bishop.
    Much of the confusion in the literature on this matter was caused by a lack
    of clarity on these two points. There is evidence of this in the letter of October
    11, 1906, which Caspar P. Koch, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, wrote to Dom
    Pothier:
    ===page 279===
    [...]
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Hi, eft94530

    I understand all that, but here's the point: you can't BUY the official edition of the 1974 Graduale (i.e. sans rhythmic marks).

    You can't buy it, because it doesn't exist.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    Carl: "... St Joseph's Missal ... Gregorian Missal ... Why are the two different?"

    A read through all comments of the following
    http://musicasacra.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1310
    is helpful but in particular see
    http://musicasacra.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1310#Item_11
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    Woo hoo! Thanks, eft!

    CD
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