New Hymnal Review: The "Our Lady of Mount Carmel Hymnal" from Music Manuscript Service
  • 32ContraBombarde32ContraBombarde
    Posts: 138
    Thrilled to check out an evaluation copy and share my thoughts about the brand new Our Lady of Mount Carmel Hymnal from Music Manuscript Service, edited by @cantus67 and published by Os Justi Press. Read more about it at catholichymnal.com. My "Chant Talk" video review is live at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_876fYt6lRk. (obligatory disclosure: while my name does appear in the acknowledgements at the beginning of the hymnal, my contribution was exceedingly minimal, and I am receiving no financial or other benefit from this review, or sales of the hymnal)

    Some key features as enumerated on the website:

    > Beautifully Bound Hardcover Featuring 853 Pages
    > More than 600 Catholic Hymns, Ancient and New
    > Full Gregorian Chant Kyriale/Ordinaries, Creeds, & Common Tones of the Mass in Chant Notation
    > Complete Text & Chants of the 1962 Requiem & Nuptial Masses
    > 4-Part Metrical Hymns for Every Liturgical Season and Occasion in 5-Line Notation with Classic Harmonizations and Traditional, Non-Modernized Lyrics
    > Gregorian Chants for Every Liturgical Season and Occasion in 4-Line Chant Notation
    > Many Hymns with Organ Introductions
    > Chants and Metrical Hymns in both Latin and English
    > A Selection of Multiple Metrical Hymn Tunes for Select Texts

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    Thanked by 8sdtalley3 OMagnumMysterium CHGiffen Joseph Michael tomjaw DavidOLGC ServiamScores CharlesW
  • Mattspmusic0320
    Posts: 69
    This looks promising!
    Thanked by 132ContraBombarde
  • 32ContraBombarde32ContraBombarde
    Posts: 138
    BTW, I’m not on Facebook anymore. If anyone feels inclined to share this to the Catholic sacred music groups there, please do!
  • Joseph Michael
    Posts: 258
    Sister Mary Cherubim!
    Thanked by 132ContraBombarde
  • Brian Michael Page
    Posts: 157
    Sounds like an excellent hymnal, but when I went to order a sample (examination) copy, they wanted $60 plus shipping. I passed, at least until the price comes down.
    BMP
    Thanked by 1ServiamScores
  • OMagnumMysterium
    Posts: 259
    It does look like a nice hymnal, but for the TLM, I wonder whether vernacular hymns are actually adding anything (as opposed to filling in that time with polyphony, ad libitum chants, Latin choral works and hymns, organ, etc). I really wonder.

    I know vernacular hymnody is used to facilitate congregational singing and understanding of good texts, but if you were to get the congregation to sing the ordinary well, and understand the Latin themselves, surely those ends would be met without vernacular hymns?

    This is something I genuinely ponder. I think the true answer is that it depends on the culture and tradition of the particular place. There can be different ways in which the true musical patrimony of the Church is expressed, although I think they all must include chant. The other types of music will depend on the situation at each particular parish.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    Vernacular hymns will probably be welcome in most TLM settings, to be sung at Low Mass, or during the entrance and final processions of the sung Mass.

    Sorry to say, the samples show that the book's typography could use some little clean-ups: for example, in the uneven way the text of Kyrie XI is diaplayed, and the slightly inconsistent line-up of the hymn headers.

    There is so much good material here, I wonder if 600 pieces might be too many. How does that compare with other hymnals? How much does the book weigh?
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,885
    Re: typography

    There are engraving errors, too. Stems colliding with lyrics, for instance.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • 32ContraBombarde32ContraBombarde
    Posts: 138
    Thanks for catching those. I'll pass it along to the editor, and give a granular look through myself specifically for typography errors. Since it's not printing in bulk yet, the master manuscript can still be updated prior to bulk printing. Feel free to DM me if you see anything specific, and I'll point it out to the editor.
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,885
    Basically, the default stem length is too long, and this is particularly so with the alto and tenor voices, hence the collisions.

    I also find the desire to tuck lyrics close to the chant and then have single words much lower than all the others to be an unfortunate one. Standard practice is to have all lyrics the same level on any given stave, so if there are low notes, all the lyrics on that stave are necessarily shifted. The method of:

    Word word word______word word
    ______________word

    Is really not acceptable practice, imho.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • 32ContraBombarde32ContraBombarde
    Posts: 138
    Thanks, @ServiamScores. Out of 88 pages of 22 Kyriale settings and 8 Credos, I found five chants with at least one instance of the vertical alignment issue. I'll pass it along to the editor, as it looks to be an error rather than a style choice.

    Regarding the stem collisions, I don't really notice it. But I'll pass along the feedback. I don't know what notation software was used, but it may be a simple formatting setting that can be adjusted.

    Edit 12/15/23 - Editor is working on correcting the vertical displacement issue on the chants today (I went through the entire hymnal last night, and made a short list for corrections). The final print version should be neat & tidy!

    Edit 2 12/17 - Editor reviewed all instances and prefers to retain the close word placement to the notes rather than moving the entire line to prevent a single syllable from dropping. Editorial choice, and he understands it won't fit everyone's preference.
    Thanked by 2ServiamScores Brian Michael Page
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    The thing I noticed about the hymn headers is that they didn't all seem to have the same margin, even allowing for the fact that the inner ("trough") margin should be bigger than the outer margin.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 997
    Another thing I noticed about the chant notation is that two syllable words get accents to aid pronunciation. That's never done. Only words of three syllables or more get accents to help with pronunciation. So: propter, not própter; Deus, not Déus; Christe, not Chríste.

    Also, using "J" instead of "I" hasn't been done in official chant books for the last 60 years. It looks terribly outdated. So: Iesu, not Jesu; iudicáre, not judicáre. Same for the use of "H": Evæ, not Hevæ.

    Then the use of ligatures: in some instances œ is used, but for æ ae is printed. That should be consistent throughout the hymnal; the better option is using a ligature. If your font doesn't support accented ligatures, you should manually add them in post.
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,885
    I agree about ligatures, but I, for one, welcome the stress markers on two syllable words. Not everyone knows where the proper stress on those words go. I’ve certainly seen them in other editions.
    Thanked by 1Liam
  • OMagnumMysterium
    Posts: 259
    I'll throw in my opinion that J should be used for the consonant, not I, except in Alleluia. And H should be used in all the places where it traditionally is. ligatures are good, and should be consistent. Two syllable words are better without accents in my opinion.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 997
    I, for one, welcome the stress markers on two syllable words. Not everyone knows where the proper stress on those words go. I’ve certainly seen them in other editions.


    It's a hymnal for TLM communties. They'll know, won't they? The stress is always on the first syllable.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • 32ContraBombarde32ContraBombarde
    Posts: 138
    It's a hymnal for TLM communties. They'll know, won't they? The stress is always on the first syllable.


    A choir/schola should, but I would never assume the people in the pews would.
    Thanked by 2ServiamScores Liam
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,885
    And if the hymnal desires to be a resource for more than just niche tlm communities, it certainly doesn’t hurt anything to have them.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    Some old chant editions do mark accents on the two-syllable words, so I can't say that this new book is alone in that. Also, modern chant editions from Solesmes use I rather than J in many cases: in the Holy Name, for example. (J is such a recent innovation, I hesitate to use it! :-). )
    Thanked by 2smvanroode CHGiffen
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    The accents on two-syllable words were for French editions... It acted as a reminder, not to sing chant the French way.
    Thanked by 3ServiamScores CHGiffen chonak
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 997
    And if the hymnal desires to be a resource for more than just niche tlm communities, it certainly doesn’t hurt anything to have them.


    For use outside niche TLM communities, the presentation of parts of the Kyriale is not very useful: the Asperges and Vidi aquam with their dialogues, the common tones of the Mass, the triple Kyrie, the propers for the Nuptial Mass and Burial Servide, etc. These are only useable within the context of the TLM, aren't they?

    A choir/schola should, but I would never assume the people in the pews would.


    Are people in the pews in TLM communities ignorant of basic Latin propunciation? (A sincere question, I wouldn't know)
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,885
    Everyone (who doesn’t grow up in it) has their “first” TLM at some point or another, and they have to learn the hard way.
    Thanked by 232ContraBombarde Mattspmusic0320
  • 32ContraBombarde32ContraBombarde
    Posts: 138
    For use outside niche TLM communities, the presentation of parts of the Kyriale is not very useful: the Asperges and Vidi aquam with their dialogues, the common tones of the Mass, the triple Kyrie, the propers for the Nuptial Mass and Burial Servide, etc. These are only useable within the context of the TLM, aren't they?


    I've used all of those (except the 62 requiem and nuptial Masses, and probably not the dialogues after the sprinkling rite) in the context of the Novus Ordo.
  • liampmcdonough
    Posts: 297
    Asperges and Vidi aquam with their dialogues, the common tones of the Mass, the triple Kyrie, the propers for the Nuptial Mass and Burial Servide, etc. These are only useable within the context of the TLM, aren't they?
    Many would say all of these can be used with the current missal in their entirety.
    Thanked by 232ContraBombarde tomjaw
  • francis
    Posts: 10,818
    I've used all of those (except the 62 requiem and nuptial Masses, and probably not the dialogues after the sprinkling rite) in the context of the Novus Ordo.
    so have I and many of us here, but it’s still a square peg in a round hole… believe me… your time is measured from that point on.

    By the way, TLM is definitely square, and the NO is definitely in the round.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 997
    I certainly didn't want to open Pandora’s box of contrasting TLM and NO. I only made the observation that the assumption that a niche hymnal, that’s tailor fit for the TLM, could serve the rest of the Church equally well, is kind of over-optimistic.
    Thanked by 1mattebery
  • OMagnumMysterium
    Posts: 259
    I am curious whether this hymnal uses the urbanite hymn texts (as given in the LU) or pre-urbanite texts.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen chonak
  • cyrillist
    Posts: 1
    Hi there! I'm new to the forum, and I find what I read about this hymnal to be intriguing. Does anyone know whether any progress has been made regarding its actual publication?
  • Cantus67Cantus67
    Posts: 208
    Although it's been a few months and there have been some roadblocks and rough spots in printing, we hope to have bulk copies ready soon, perhaps by the end of September. Look for an announcement at Os Justi press. https://osjustipress.com/
    Thanks again to @32ContraBombarde for all his posts and wonderful review. We are honored.
    Thanked by 1OMagnumMysterium
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    The page examples on the website date from December 2023, so they don't reflect whatever work has been done since then to correct typographical mistakes. Can those be updated?

    (Even leaving the mistakes aside, I do not understand how anyone can set a hymnal in Times font. I can't think of a serif typeface more associated with commerce, corporations, and memos than Times.)
    Thanked by 3OMagnumMysterium ServiamScores CHGiffen
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,311
    I agree. That’s a bad choice.
  • RoborgelmeisterRoborgelmeister
    Posts: 174
    Times New Roman is probably not a good choice, but perhaps shouldn't be called a "bad" choice. It's a choice that could be reviewed for a possible change. There was a recent discussion about typefaces, and many positive ideas were put forth. "The best criticism of the bad is the practice of the better". - Richard Rohr, O.F.M.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    Times New Roman can safely be considered a bad choice for anything other than saving space on a newspaper broadsheet - or for contracts that you don't want anyone to read. It is designed to be suboptimal to read.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen tomjaw
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    I doubt the designers really set out to make the font averse to being read, but they did make it very compact for its use in the newspaper.

    And, as we know, efficiency is not a liturgical value. :-)

    Some more attractive fonts to consider are Palatino, Plantin, and Laurentian Pro. But there are many others.

    One of the worst aspects of Times New Roman for any book is that it was for a long time the default font in Microsoft Word, so it gives the impression that the editors took the least-effort option.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,818
    About

    https://creativepro.com/times-roman-vs-times-new-roman/
    Thanked by 1Liam
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    And the concluding recommendation for Georgia for online reading was definitely something I learned in the mid-Naughties, but has been further development in the intervening decades.

    Good friends don't let friends use Times/TNR fonts before considering better alternatives. And fonts are just one part of an array of choices: line/paragraph spacing, kerning, et cet.
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,885
    IowanOldStyle is a timeless beauty. (Has extra weights, too.)
    Thanked by 1chonak
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