Article RE: Sentimental Music at Mass
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,039
    Article from the website Where Peter Is that defends the use of sentimental songs at Mass.

    https://wherepeteris.com/for-a-more-sentimental-church/

    I take a middle approach. I don't program sentimental songs for parish Sunday or holy day Masses. I never program "On Eagle's Wings" on Sundays. But I will provide that song and other similar ones by request at a funeral or wedding. One recent funeral requested David Haas' "We Will Rise Again". I did it. Funerals and weddings are not the time to be a liturgical prig.

    Sundays and general parish Masses are a different story.

    I'm taking the approach that by removing those sorts of songs from the general parish repertoire and replacing them with others that are more substantial and/or chants, eventually those other songs or chants will come to have prayerful and spiritual associations and meaning in the hearts and minds of the faithful. That will take time, a long time; the inertia from the past fifty years of liturgical musical practice is strong, as is the influence of OCP. Over time, through deliberate disuse, inferior or liturgically inappropriate songs will fade from collective memory, but they have to be retired from the Sunday repertoire for that to begin to happen.

    I think it's regrettable that hardly any Catholics know the Requiem Aeternam introit for funeral Masses nor the Lux Aeterna communion antiphon. Those used to be the most frequently heard and sung chants in the church because of their use at funerals. I chant the Lux Aeterna at every funeral before I sing the requested Communion song.
  • LarsLars
    Posts: 119
    Where I am it went from sentimental pseudo religious music to literal profane pop music fairly quickly, even at regular Mass. Funerals and weddings are basically Top of the Pops now.
    Thanked by 1DavidOLGC
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,778
    I have been reintroducing the propers at our funerals for the last few years. So far it has been reasonably well-received, although it helps that I will sing the chants in both Latin and English. I’ll never forget the first time I sand “In Paradisum” when the casket was being rolled out… I had three parishioners come up to me afterwards and say with great enthusiasm, “what was that?! It was so beautiful; I want it at my funeral too!”
  • DavidOLGCDavidOLGC
    Posts: 80
    Lars 5:07AM
    Where I am it went from sentimental pseudo religious music to literal profane pop music fairly quickly, even at regular Mass. Funerals and weddings are basically Top of the Pops now.


    I'm sorry to hear that.

    Our parish did the opposite - went in a couple of years' time from typical OCP guitar-and-piano folky-pop-pseudo Broadway music to a much more traditional and respectful musical style.

    No one in the congregation has complained...in fact many seem to appreciate having music in church that sounds like "church".
    Thanked by 1Lars
  • Mark,

    I'm going to put your use of the word "prig" down to generosity but it fails to capture the point.

    [Edited to remove discussion that is not family-friendly. --admin]
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,039
    Because saying no to a request for music they love and that they have heard sung frequently at Masses for the past forty years no matter where they lived in the United States would hurt them unnecessarily and thus be uncharitable. The article mentions the example of a pastor who flatly refused to allow "On Eagle's Wings" and "Here I Am, Lord" to be sung at the funeral Mass for a longtime parishioner. The family went elsewhere for the funeral. I think the pastor was wrong to be unyielding in that circumstance.

    "All things being equal," is an important qualifier in the instruction, "All things being equal, Gregorian chant is to be given pride of place." Among the realities that we parish musicians must consider is the fact that many of the Catholics now reaching the ends of their lives, and their children, spent decades of their formative and mature years hearing and singing such songs at Mass. To allow them mom's favorite St. Louis Jesuit songs and the Schubert Ave Maria at her funeral Mass is a justifiable concession done for good reasons and is an act of charitable service to God's people. I have said no to requests for secular songs such as "I Did It My Way."

    As I wrote in my original post, Sundays and the general parish repertoire are another matter. The only St. Louis Jesuit song I still use is "Come to the Water". You can remove the gunk from the flow, but the filter still needs to be cleaned from what had been run through it in the past. The average Catholic's liturgical music filter will need years to be purified; you can't just swap it out like an air filter.
    Thanked by 1mattebery
  • Mark,

    "Grandma had ...... at her funeral" is a way to perpetuate, not allow to expire, the dreadful music. That may not be your intention, but it is certainly the consequence.

    After all, the deceased won't hear ...... except from Heaven, Hell or Purgatory. If she hears it from Heaven, she might well weep that her children are being led astray, but be grateful that the music in Heaven doesn't include it. If she hears it from Hell, so I'm told, she'll relish the thought of her children joining her there, and if she's in Purgatory, she'll urge her children to offer up this suffering to help shorten her time there.

    Usually what "Grandma loved..." means is "I associate this with grandma, and I love her, so .......", but it fundamentally takes a non-Catholic understanding of the Requiem to include it.

    I've heard it said (I think by Abp Sheen, but I could be wrong) that 'I did it my way' is the national anthem of Hell.

    You seem to have a strange notion of what "justifiable concession" means.

    "All things being equal," is an important qualifier in the instruction, "All things being equal, Gregorian chant is to be given pride of place."


    It's not an important qualifier if, in qualifying, it eviscerates the otherwise clear meaning of the text.
    The average Catholic's liturgical music filter will need years to be purified
    is quite true, but that purification doesn't take place, unless you mean that attachment to it becomes so pure that it can withstand any rational, sensible argument for its discontinuation... because it has now been sung/played at grandma's funeral when I was a little girl, and mom's funeral when I had kids of my own, and will some day be played at mine because I've put a codicil in my will that a substantial endowment will come to the parish which allows it, and a lawsuit will arrive at the one which refuses it.
  • davido
    Posts: 895
    Chris, you do have a point about “what was sung at Grandma’s funeral” carrying more associative power than what is heard at Sunday mass.
    But not to worry, Grandma’s funeral will be the last time any of the family will ever set foot in church again. At least, that’s how it looks from my organ bench…
  • Davido,

    My Oratory has every age bracket from 80+ to toddler, including students from Stanford who drive quite a distance to get here, and some families with servers from the south towns drive close to an hour, one way. We're building for the future. That future doesn't include the songs under discussion as permissible.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw LauraKaz
  • DCM
    Posts: 70
    [Edited to remove response to discussion that is not family-friendly. --admin]
  • LarsLars
    Posts: 119
    [Edited to remove discussion that is not family-friendly. --admin]
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,003
    Not sure if this counts as sentimental, but this might be a good moment for this here:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a14hbMd3L1U
    Thanked by 1fcb
  • DCM
    Posts: 70
    [Edited to remove discussion that is not family-friendly. --admin]
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,778
    [Edited to remove response to discussion that is not family-friendly. --admin]
  • [Edited to remove continuation of previous discussion that was not family-friendly. --admin]
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  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    I knew that there was a reason why I stopped actively participating: This thread has reminded me of it.
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,778
    Even more extreme is when dissenting bishops like Burke and his ideological ally, Bishop Athanasius Schneider, decry sentimentalism but resort to conspiracy theories and moral panic in their campaign to reject Pope Francis’s leadership and magisterial teachings. What could possibly be a more dangerous form of sentimentalism than abandoning critical thinking and taking up fantastical crusades rooted in paranoia?
    Having finally had an opportunity to read the article, I found myself profoundly saddened by the quote above, which belies a profound ignorance on the part of the author. There’s not much more I can say than that.

    Yes of course, our Lord uses any and all means to touch the hearts of all who seek Him, and this can very well include less-than-ideal music. But that’s not a solid argument for preferring the alternative which is in better keeping with tradition that dates back to time immemorial, and that would continue to touch hearts, albeit perhaps in a different way. And I think people sometimes forget that some of these hymns and other pieces of music are not bad in se, but rather merely inappropriate for holy Mass. There’s a big difference. This is why I have no issue with Christian “pop” music in the car or while you’re on a jog… just not at Mass.
  • [Edited to remove a reply to the above discussion that was not family-friendly. --admin]
  • Chrism
    Posts: 869
    It's not that the so-called sentimental music is actually sentimental, it's that it's not. It is the musical equivalent of anesthetic. It dulls the senses and heart's emotions and replaces them with nothingness. This is not the peace which passeth understanding, but the peace of a sensory deprivation chamber. Subjectively, the music itself doesn't make me think "I will (actually) raise you up" or "Here I am, (my very real and powerful and loving) Lord", but rather it distracts the mind from prayer and liturgical action and replaces it with flim-flam.

    Truly sentimental music which is also pious is also often despised here. I am thinking of the children's hymns like Bring Flowers - an anodyne pastoral with a solid punchline "Mary we crown thee" (boom!), or Jesus, Jesus Come to Me, or 'Tis the Month of the Mother. These express sentiments, but sentiments oriented toward proper theological ends.
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,039
    What I don't like is the attempt in some parish music programs to compel a contrived experience of exuberance, mistakenly believing that happy-clappy music is a meaningful spiritual experience or a meaningful component of liturgical prayer. Consider this utterly embarrassing example from my survey of Mass livestreams around the country this past weekend:

    https://www.youtube.com/live/vqsz9OZD_aI?feature=share&t=3809

    Why should anyone take the Church or Catholic liturgy or liturgical music seriously if that is presented as what the Mass and liturgical music are?

    I disagree with the author of the article that intentionally appealing to people's emotions with music at Mass is a worthy aim for a parish music program. Yet a significant number of people hold that position and have been conditioned by decades of parish practice to want the music to stimulate them or move them emotionally.
  • Mark,

    I somehow didn't see the link at first, and have just read the article. Thank you for posting it, but I think you've mischaracterized what the article's author does. He figures that the only people who don't like these pieces of sentimental stock are those who embrace conspiracy theories, and hate people who don't think like them. His goal isn't to promote the music, so much as it appears to be to demonize anyone who won't put his intellect at idle.

    I have had the pleasure of being in the same room with Cardinal Burke. He loves God and wants to make sure that everyone hears the loving message of that God whom He knows. If he hates something, it's hypocrisy or casualness toward our Lord. Neither he nor Bishop Schneider (whom I've had the pleasure of hearing preach, live, at a Mass at which I was in the choir) is driven by ideology nor by conspiracy theories.

    Chrism is right on the difference which separates the modern "sentimental" music from the devotional hymns when he says
    These express sentiments, but sentiments oriented toward proper theological ends.


  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,955
    MarkB, I listened as long as I could stand it. That singer is anything but and if she ever had any real talent, time has taken it from her. What always amazes me is vested priests who don't seem to realize how silly they look while singing this stuff. It's like, what's wrong with this picture. Oh well, just take your Xanax and hum 'here I am lord, she's over there lord, they're across the street lord, hummmmmmmmm.' New church in practice. Now doesn't that feel good?
  • NihilNominisNihilNominis
    Posts: 994
    When we declare war on “sentiment” in the course of “improving” a parish music program, especially when “improvement” is not defined as singing more of the liturgical texts, but of “picking better hymns”, we risk putting our parishioners through an experience that probably feels to them like replacing

    Hold Thou Thy Cross before my closing eyes,
    Shine through the gloom and point me to the skies.
    Heav’n’s morning breaks, and earth’s vain shadows flee;
    In life, in death, O Lord, abide with me!


    with

    May dying souls true comfort find
    In Jesus Crucified
    And those in thrall to fear of death
    Know God with them abides.


    would feel to us. That is to say, “drying out” the experience of worship. That’s what generates so many kind of undefined complaints, where people can’t articulate a theological objection, but it just doesn’t hit right to them. “Where have they taken the Lord...?”

    As if the Dies Irae is not sentimental...
  • NihilNominisNihilNominis
    Posts: 994
    A programmatic approach that can be adapted as needful, but only where resources exist to do so. Where these are lacking, improvement is not out of the question, but likely building the resources to do the following is prerequisite to it. I have tips on that, too:

    -Sing more liturgy, sing fewer hymns. Sing everything beautifully and with an eye to the heart. Consider that no additional points are given for “correctness” by those unsold on what you are up to.
    -Build courage to sing new hymns through careful cultivation, and through singing very familiar hymns frequently so that the congregation are comfortable in their voice.
    -Sing complete hymns, but just one or two in a Mass.
    -Play and arrange hymns compellingly.
    -Sing hymns with guts to close the liturgy... all the way through... in singable keys and gorgeous arrangements. Never sing texts that are convoluted, obscure, cold, or dry.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,707
    would hurt them unnecessarily and thus be uncharitable.
    feelings trump all? Even what is proscribed? What religion is that?

    True charity is giving people what they need and deserve, even if they don’t know it themselves. Over time it will become evident to them.

    Let me tell you something. Pandering to people’s feelings is a cop out. We have to be leaders and do what is right, even if the opposition throws us on the street.
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  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,778
    True charity is giving people what they need and deserve, even if they don’t know it themselves.
    Willing the good of the other and all that. I feel like I've heard this before!

    Parents who care about their children will strive to offer them a [reasonably] balanced and healthy diet, even if the children reject half (or even most of!) the food on their plate. Then as the children matriculate, they acquire tastes for better and better food. It's fair to admit that we all have dessert and treats sometimes, but they (by necessity) are secondary to the primary diet of healthier food, otherwise you end up "fat, sick, and nearly dead" to use a popular phrase.

    At least for me, this is the approach I attempt to take with our parish. I've weeded out the worst stuff to the best of my ability, and I offer richer fare. Not everyone likes it all, which is a pity, but they aren't "there" just yet. But I still keep the food on the plate, and I give them "treats" of simpler, well-known/beloved hymnody to assuage the hunger pangs of those who refuse to eat the healthier food. At least it spares them from not eating any dinner at all.

    But I've also learned as a parent that sometimes item X, which would be rejected on its own, doesn't seem quite so bad next to item Y, which puts it all in perspective. Carrots are practically a delight when placed next to peas. And sometimes kids need to see something on their plate 15 times before they will even take ONE bite. The answer isn't to stop offering the good stuff... it's to keep offering the good stuff until they are primed enough to receive it. And, irony of ironies, sometimes they really like it when they finally try it!
  • francis
    Posts: 10,707
    At some point people get hungry enough, and will eat whatever is put in front of them. It’s the old story of Green eggs and ham. “ Say! I do like these green eggs and ham. I DO like them, Sam, I am!
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,039
    NihilNominis, you made an important point. I think better than the term "sentimental" would be syrupy or emotionally manipulative music.

    It's not that chant doesn't move me; it does. But the movement is not superficial.

    I don't know if I've shared this article before, but I think it does a good job of arguing that missalette music doesn't belong at Mass; chant does. It also claims that missalette music, a-la OCP, is partly responsible for the decline in Mass attendance because those who can't stand it have stopped going to Mass.

    https://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2016/12/breaking-bad-missalette-music-is.html

    Secular forms might well draw us in, but if they are so far removed from the forms of an authentic liturgical culture, then even in the context of the liturgy they are inclined to lead us back to the secular values, not on to the Eucharist. Such music is less likely to draw us into a genuinely deep and active participation in the worship of God. In the long term, therefore, any secular music, even if it draws people to Mass, will inevitably lead to more people leaving the Church than staying because the music is distracting them from what is at the heart of the Mass. As a result, there is less of a force that draws us into a supernatural transformation in Christ. There will be fewer Christians, therefore, with the capacity for transmitting an authentic Christian joy to those with whom they interact in their daily lives, outside the Mass and the liturgy. With this reduced power for evangelization, we will lose our lifeblood.

    Were the approach to music correct and, (dare one hope for more?) our liturgies celebrated in the way that the Church truly desires, would this then bring huge numbers back to churches? In the long run, I would say yes, but in the short run, almost certainly not. But it would bring to the church immediately those who are genuinely looking for what the chant directs their hearts to - God. In the long term, this would have a domino effect. More people who attend Mass would be participating more deeply and become emissaries of the New Evangelization, shining with the light of Christ as they go about their daily business. This, in turn, would draw others to Christ. Because we have free will this is never going to be the whole population, but I do believe that it can be far more than we currently see in our churches today.

    Has the throw-away missalette approach to church music had its day? Probably not yet, to judge from the support that so many bishops, priests and choir directors currently give to this style in the cause of a faux pastoralism that actually alienates most people. But because of this alienation, it does contain the seeds of its own destruction. Unless it is replaced by something else, under the influence of brave pastors and choir directors who are prepared to take the truly pastoral approach, one that takes into consideration the majority who aren’t at church, then we are doomed to steadily declining congregations until the generation that currently listens to this style of music grows old and disappears.

  • NihilNominisNihilNominis
    Posts: 994
    As ServiamScores commented on this recording from my parish on Pentecost, "Got me right in the feels!"

    That's sentiment, and we love it.

    The text is of course just a simple, effective, direct translation of a proper liturgical hymn, Veni Creator Spiritus, set to a stirring vernacular tune that is dignified and has no particular secular connotations, but which is also not constrained by restrictive and absolutist ideals of "churchiness" either.

    It is presented and played in a way that fosters participation, in a congregation that has been carefully trained and encouraged to participate robustly.

    At the principal Mass, the people sing the Ordinary in plainsong most Sundays, the Marian Antiphon for the season, and a hymn at the end. The Marian Antiphon is great because, coming immediately before the hymn, but being invariable, it "warms up" the congregation's voice, and gives them confidence for the hymn that follows, even if it should prove less familiar.

    I practice the hymn at the organ more than anything else week to week, even though it is the easiest piece of the liturgy. Because it is the hymn, more than any other single musical feature of the liturgy, that will pull all of the other pieces together and send the people off with a sense of complete ownership of the entire Mass in which they just participated.

    If the hymn, through poor selection or substandard execution, fails to be that ineffable, intangible thing -- an act of worship -- then the more "objective" pieces of the liturgy will feel colder and alien in retrospect. The hymn is an important element in building goodwill for all of the other choral work and genuine liturgical music that we do.

    Granted, this is not a normal parish. But it is also not an impossible dream. And the congregation did not always sing this way -- that's a concerted effort of my predecessor and myself.
  • Don9of11Don9of11
    Posts: 693
    There are a number of devotional hymns that many of you shy away from because you say they are "sentimental." A wonderful hymn which invokes a sundary of different opinions among the group is "Bring Flowers of the Rarest." There are others such as "Sweet Sacrament Divine" or "In this Sacrament Sweet Jesus", "Mother at Your Feet is Kneeling; Jesus Gentlest Savior; O Jesus Christ Remember; Again We Greet Our Mother; Mother Dear Oh Pray for Me; Good Night Sweet Jesus; Jesus My Lord My God My All; or O Cor Jesu; Veni Jesu Amor Mi; Panis Angelicus; O Sacrum Convivium, and many, many more.

    Every generation has had hymns/ sacred songs that invoke some sentiment in groups of people. Granted, I don't care for "On Eagles Wings" or "The Summons" or "I want to walk as a Child of the Light" or "One Bread One Body" or my all time least favorite "I am the bread of Life." Even though the lyrics might come straight from the scriptures or some part of the New Testament, they don't keep me grounded in my faith like the old devotional hymns do.

    It's not the melody of these older hymns that might invoke some sentiment, some adoration, or love toward Jesus, His Mother, or one of His Saints, but the quality of the text, and its ability to teach me about my Catholic faith, this is what I look for in my hymns. To me, what I've written makes good sense, but to some of you, it might be to sentimental.
  • NihilNominisNihilNominis
    Posts: 994
    Don,

    It is also interesting to me how mixed your list is -- containing as it does devotional hymnody, novena hymns, and even liturgical motets and texts.

    I have no issue with the idea of the tune having a lot to do with it. I think the idea that "only the text matters" has been as abused as any notion in modern liturgical practice.
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,778
    I have no issue with the idea of the tune having a lot to do with it. I think the idea that "only the text matters" has been as abused as any notion in modern liturgical practice.
    I agree.

    Interestingly, I was watching a recent video on the composer David Bruce's YouTube channel yesterday where he discusses making arrangements of other works. One little section details how drastically you can change the effect of a text (even keeping the original melody) by recasting it in music with a totally different vibe. I have no doubt whatsoever that the text, "He will raise up up on Eagle's wings, and bear you on the breath of dawn." could be set very nicely in other styles. Imagine what Parry would have done with it.
    Thanked by 2DavidOLGC LauraKaz
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,039
    .
  • francis
    Posts: 10,707
    those who can't stand it have stopped going to Mass.
    well, at least the N.O. mass where you might run into it. However, since I run the music at an N.O. mass you can be sure darned guaranteed you won't hear any there...
    773 x 323 - 93K
  • Don9of11Don9of11
    Posts: 693
    It is also interesting to me how mixed your list is -- containing as it does devotional hymnody, novena hymns, and even liturgical motets and texts.


    NihilNominis, all the hymns I mentioned, St. Mary's Choir in Akron, Ohio sang for Sunday Mass, Adorations, Sacred Heart devotions, etc., and in the Novus Ordo from 1977 to 2005. Just this past Sunday, I sang Sweet Sacrament Divine, as a second communion hymn. Our organist really likes the melody and words, a win!

    The text does matter to me, and it should matter to everyone. I would rather sing "I need Thee Gracious Jesus" then "I am the bread of life" or "I will raise you up." For hymns to the Blessed Sacrament or Eucharist, "In this Sacrament Sweet Jesus, Thou dost give Thy flesh and blood" as opposed to "You satisfy the hungry heart with gifts of bread and wine."

    Recently, Bishop Barron published "This is My Body" his book as part of the Eucharistic revival. In the very opening paragraph, he states that a recent Pew Forum survey indicates that 67% of Catholics don't believe in the "real presence." He doesn't elaborate on how many Catholic's were surveyed but it is still and alarming number. (My parish offered these booklets for free two Sunday's ago, that's how it is that I have a copy. I don't really need it, but it doesn't hurt to have a refresher.)

    And I say, duh! When you sing hymns in the third person or when focus is on "you, me or I," it doesn't take long to figureout what will happen to the Catholic, with a steady diet of it. We have had some sixty years to see the results.

    Hymns, can be a very effecaious means of teaching men and women of all ages their Catechism and the many beliefs of the Church, like Purgatory, Angels, and so on, and many hymn writers composed them for that very purpose. Introducing these older hymns could make all the difference. I should say, it seems to be making a difference where I am.
  • davido
    Posts: 895
    Nihil, this is dynamite
    That is to say, “drying out” the experience of worship. That’s what generates so many kind of undefined complaints, where people can’t articulate a theological objection, but it just doesn’t hit right to them. “Where have they taken the Lord...?”


    You have given me some great insight
  • NihilNominisNihilNominis
    Posts: 994
    I’m glad it was helpful!
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,065
    I can't believe we're discussing anything Mike Lewis has to say. Chris G-Z nailed it.
    Can't say more; I'm busy singing sentimental music by Byrd and Vivanco and the ever-passionate St. Gregory.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,409
    Checking back, I find that the article is not about sentimental music at Mass, except in so far as it mentions funerals. But the requiem Mass ought not to be the only element of a funeral, what you might sing at the reception of the body, at the cremation or interment is open to different considerations.
    And it does not argue for copious sentimental music in worship just that it should not be completely excluded. Also, both specific occasions on which Mike Lewis mentions valuable effects on him of sentimental music occurred when he was a teenager, only one of these was at Mass, and the communion hymn/motet is can arguably apptoptiately express individual sentiment,
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,003
    The consummate non-Propers Scriptural canticle for Communion would quite arguably be the Magnificat, a personal canticle of praise to God (after having received God) for his mighty power for lowly and keeping his covenant to his people/the People of God (it's therefore not purely individualistic in perspective). The text hits all the notes, as it were, somewhat differently from inserting a Benediction hymn in that liturgical moment. And there are so many settings of it to choose from, including worthy metrical paraphrases that can be set to tunes easily remembered by a congregation.
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,778
    AFH—I’m not sure I buy your take. The whole tacit implication is that he’s discussion the issue of music at mass. We rarely speak of liturgical wars and ideologies when it comes to graveside rites or baptisms.
  • Hawkins,

    In fairness, the "shouldn't be excluded" argument is which you argue that he makes has worn out its welcome some time ago: the vernacular has been permitted and celebration of the Ordo of Paul VI in Latin is treated almost as a sign of heretical behavior.
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  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,409
    Chris GZ - indeed, and as I have more than once cited, Abp Shehan in 1967, as soon as a complete vernacular Missal was available (not NO obviously), banned any use of Latin in Baltimore. A visceral hatred of Latin was it seems not uncommon among US prelates who attended VII. In England we benefitted from the guidance of Cdl Heenan, who required in Westminster parishes that at least one Sunday Mass should be in Latin.
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  • francis
    Posts: 10,707
    CGZ

    If you think about it, the Latin mass does seem to be theologically heretical to the VII church. Hence why the Motu against it.
  • Hawkins,

    In England we benefitted from the guidance of Cdl Heenan


    I thought you were in a Danish diocese on the Isle of Sodor?
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  • Liam
    Posts: 5,003
    To clarify the humor that may be obscure to some: The Danelaw didn't extend to Mann, but the Norse (Norwegians) did - hence "Sodor" being Southern Isles (similarly, why "Sutherland" may seem northern from an English and Lowland Scots perspective, but southern from a Norse perspective).
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,409
    The Manx are pretty conservative/traditional minded. They have not changed the name of their (now Anglican) diocese despite it having split nearly 800 years ago. And having settled on St John's Day for the national holiday over a thousand years ago they are celebrating it not today but in a fortnight in accordance with the Julian calendar.
    Before retiring here 25 years ago I spent most of my life in the London area where I was born. Life here is calmer, though the pinnacles of high culture are absent, including liturgy.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,225
    @Mark:

    hurt them unnecessarily and thus be uncharitable


    True charity is requiring the right thing--that the rules be followed. You cite a family who moved to another church for a funeral after being told 'No' to their wishes.

    See John 6:67 "Then Jesus said unto the twelve, 'Will ye also go away?'"
    Thanked by 2ServiamScores tomjaw
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,225
    some of these hymns and other pieces of music are not bad in se, but rather merely inappropriate for holy Mass


    Just as are "Mother Dear, O Pray for Me" and "To Jesus' Heart All Burning".......we could go on. That stuff is Tin Pan Alley; it's not a coincidence that the New Hotness is Broadway.
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  • dad29
    Posts: 2,225
    Neither he nor Bishop Schneider (whom I've had the pleasure of hearing preach, live, at a Mass at which I was in the choir) is driven by ideology nor by conspiracy theories.


    I've followed Cdl. Burke's statements--we are both from Wisconsin--and he has NEVER "opposed" the Pope. He has questioned the structure/meaning of a few of Francis' statements, which is legitimate questioning.

    (It is telling that he never received an answer to his questions.)
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,778
    The aspersions cast at Bp. Schneider are particularly appalling, I think. I have listened to hours of his interviews and read his books. He is an extremely erudite, well-reasoned (and even cautious) man.

    I perceive Cdl. Burke much the same way, although I have less evidence to back up the feeling. I have met him, however, and in a room of 800 people, he had the unique ability to make it seem like you were the only other person in the world who even existed, while he talked to you. It was exceptional.