Must cantors be Catholic?
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,016
    The relevant Vatican documents from the CDF in 2001 and 2008 - the 2001 document became a news event because it underscored how the traditional Nicene churches are different from the LDS Church, which does not embrace Nicene orthodoxy:

    https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20010605_battesimo_mormoni-ladaria_en.html

    https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20080201_validity-baptism-miralles_en.html

    Example of practical application by diocesan legislation (though it contains equivocal matter, too: for but one example, Seventh Day Adventist baptism is listed in both valid and doubtful lists - leading me to suspect this was compiled by committee and never fully reconciled as a whole - other diocese have published lists as well): https://lacatholics.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Valid-Invalid-Baptisms-.pdf
  • I know of an SSPX chapel, where A few Lutherans do the gregorian chant for the liturgy (They dont go to communion there).
    Also i was allowed into the schola as a catechumen. Though i suppose thats a different matter.

    Just thought it might be of interest to hear that even some stricter communities are tolerant of this.

    Also historically one might recall the case of Hermann Cohen, a jewish musician who was one day responsible for the music at a eucharistic adoration, and there converted upon having to himself revealed the true nature of the holy Sacrament.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Carol
    Posts: 856
    I cannot resist throwing a wrench into the works here, but how do we feel about Catholic organists playing for Protestant services because the pay is better than they can get at the local parish? Therefore many parishes limp along with the local piano teacher playing the organ as best she can, while the Protestants are accompanied by a well trained organist who is a Catholic.

    I will now go hide in a bunker!!
  • AnimaVocis
    Posts: 133
    Carol,

    That's interesting, as I originally started working for the Catholics because the Lutherans couldn't afford me!

    Now, as stated, I have remained in the Catholic Church for much better reasons!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,960
    Depends on where you are, Carol. In my area of the south, there are 300+ Protestant churches and a small handful of Catholic churches. There aren't enough Catholic parishes to employ more than 5 or so organists. Keep in mind some of the Catholic churches don't even have organs. If you want to play for a church, it will most likely be a Protestant one.
    Thanked by 2DavidOLGC Carol
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,157
    One of the members of my church is a professor of organ at the local university. He plays the organ for one of the Protestant churches because they pay him.
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,792
    If the Church saw a need for a rule, it would have made one, and made it clear to all.
    Yes indeed. The Church should make the rules clear, so they can be more clearly ignored.
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,792
    I cannot resist throwing a wrench into the works here, but how do we feel about Catholic organists playing for Protestant services because the pay is better than they can get at the local parish?
    I once saw an interview with Cdl. Sarah, where a mother asked if her daughter should play for protestant services, now that she is being asked to help her piano teacher, who serves such a role in a protestant church. He was adamant (quite emphatic, it surprised me, actually) that this is absolutely not permissible. To paraphrase (from memory) he said something to the effect that such worship is in fact an affront to our Lord since it is an ape of the true Faith, and to participate is to imply a communion that doesn't actually exist, and that furthermore, it could be injurious to one's faith to do so. Consequently, it is to be avoided at all costs.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,960
    bhcordova, those Protestant churches also tend to invest in better organs.
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,792
    (and not-infrequently have prettier / more august liturgies... at least among the likes of traditional lutherans and anglicans)
  • DavidOLGCDavidOLGC
    Posts: 82
    ServiamScores 11:45AM
    Posts: 2,393
    .... that this is absolutely not permissible. .... such worship is in fact an affront to our Lord since it is an ape of the true Faith, and to participate is to imply a communion that doesn't actually exist, and that furthermore, it could be injurious to one's faith to do so. Consequently, it is to be avoided at all costs.


    Interesting that you bring up this issue.

    I'm old enough to recall Catholics not being able to go to services of other religions for those reasons.

    Then again, I was confirmed in 1967.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,725
    such worship is in fact an affront to our Lord since it is an ape of the true Faith, and to participate is to imply a communion that doesn't actually exist, and that furthermore, it could be injurious to one's faith to do so. Consequently, it is to be avoided at all costs.


    To this I have always subscribed. There is a piece by an OP on this that I will try to find.

    UPDATE

    here is article I mention above

    http://www.christendom-awake.org/pages/thomas-crean/praying-with-non-catholics.htm
    Thanked by 3tomjaw Carol DavidOLGC
  • FSSPmusic
    Posts: 261
    There is conflict between tradition and current law on these points. Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism ordered by Pope John Paul II, 1993:
    118. In liturgical celebrations taking place in other Churches and ecclesial Communities, Catholics are encouraged to take part in the psalms, responses, hymns and common actions of the Church in which they are guests. If invited by their hosts, they may read a lesson or preach.

    133. The reading of Scripture during a Eucharistic celebration in the Catholic Church is to be done by members of that Church. On exceptional occasions and for a just cause, the Bishop of the diocese may permit a member of another Church or ecclesial Community to take on the task of reader.

    Fr. Heribert Jone, Moral Theology, 1962 American edition:
    125. Active participation in non-Catholic services is entirely forbidden (C. 1258 ). The natural law forbids participation in services that are heretical. If the service is one that heretics have in common with us, even though no scandal comes from such participation, it is at least forbidden by Church law.... It is forbidden to sing, play the organ or other instruments in the religious services of non-Catholics. But it is not forbidden to pray or sing privately with heretics if the prayers or songs are not heretical and no scandal is given. Whoever acts contrary to the prescriptions of C. 1258 and takes part in non-Catholic services is suspected of heresy (C. 2316).

    126. Passive attendance at non-Catholic services is allowed for a good reason.... Passive assistance implies that no part is taken in praying, singing, etc.

    127. Active participation of non-Catholics in Catholic services is forbidden in as far as it gives the impression that there is no essential difference between Catholic and non-Catholic faith or promotes indifferentism.... [Non-catholics] may not carry candles at liturgical functions, alternate at choir-prayers or participate in liturgical singing. For special reasons the Holy Office has allowed schismatic girls to sing with Catholic girls at liturgical functions. If no Catholic organist is available, a non-Catholic may play the organ for a time, scandal, however, being avoided.

    Jone, as I understand, represents a middle-of-the-road preconciliar position, not by any means the most rigid stance possible. Even today in Germany, where the churches aren't exactly famous for their conservatism, it is rare for a Catholic church to have a Lutheran organist or vice versa, and there was even some controversy over a Catholic being hired as Thomaskantor just a couple years ago. In the United States it's quite common for musicians to work outside their own denomination; we have so many denominations and sects here that it can be difficult for churches to find someone of their own confession. My current parish went many months without an organist before I was hired, and my last two predecessors weren't Catholic.

    Last year I visited an Orthodox cathedral (as a tourist, not a worshiper) and was somewhat surprised to see a sign in the narthex stating very clearly that non-Orthodox were not to participate in the services in any way whatsoever. I have never seen anything like that in a Catholic church, but I did see a sign posted at the entrance of a monastery church saying that Communion would only be given on the tongue, no Communion in the hand. These kinds of things seem less offensive in places frequented by tourists than in the typical parish church. I've drifted a little bit from the question, but we have to decide whether we're going to follow tradition or the current rules, and what exceptions we'll tolerate out of necessity. I know others would disagree, by I've personally been told by both FSSP and SSPX priests that it's lawful to play the organ for a non-Catholic church for pay. At a conference, an FSSP priest said he thought an argument could be made in favor of non-Catholic singers supplementing at least one Catholic singer, which sounds quite reasonable. Perhaps inquire with your diocesan office of worship as to whether your bishop has an policy on the regular use of non-Catholic cantors.

    In a PiusV descended missa cantata the cantor is adding an ornamental rendering of what has been said silently by the priest, which is the 'operative' liturgy.
    Sorry, @a_f_hawkins, but I reject this interpretation as unhistorical and false. It is the priest's sotto voce reading of the sacred text that is the duplication of the actual liturgical proclamation of it, not the other way around. Surely you wouldn't say that, when the pre-55 rubrics are followed, the celebrant's reading of the epistle and gospel constitute the "operative liturgy" (whatever that means) and that the chanting by the subdeacon and deacon is merely a ceremonial addition! I realize that the toleration of the Deutsches Hochamt, where the actual texts of the choral Proper and Ordinary of the Mass aren't even heard by the congregation, is an argument against my position, but surely that is the exception, not the rule. The mostly failed overemphasis on active participation seems to have led to a reactionary misunderstanding in some quarters of the Mass as something that the priest alone does (in persona Christi, of course), and both extremes have contributed in their own way to the prevailing musical mediocrity in so many churches by detracting from the dignity of what we do and viewing choral music as either an obstacle to congregational participation or more or less sophisticated liturgical background music.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,725
    There is conflict between tradition and current law
    tells all… now there is a conflict between dogma and current law.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,423
    francis - judging the sacramental reality is beyond my pay grade, but I hold that the bureaucrats of SRC regarded the priest's utterances as the only essential. That is why Fortescue was so contemptuous of them, and considered that "whatever beauty interest or historic value, or dignity, the Roman rite ever had has been utterly destroyed by the uneducated little cads who run that filthy congregation at Rome;" Unfortunately their attitude was widely disseminated among the clergy, which led many of them to lose their bearings when liturgical reform came in.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,157
    Wouldn't the pre-1955 rubrics be invalid?
  • BHCordova,

    Could you define "invalid"?
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,157
    Since the EF has permission to use the 1962 Missal, wouldn't the rubrics from 1962 need to be used at a valid EF Mass?
  • For Holy Week, other rubrics are permitted, by special permission already granted.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw bhcordova
  • It seems the answer the question is, depends on your parish and your pastor. A case could be made for either prohibition of non-Catholic cantors or for inclusion of same. Therefore, I would say this is a clear case of subsidiarity and discernment on a case-by-case basis.

    In my case, I sang in the choir while I was discerning entrance into the Church, but I refused to sing the responsorial psalm until I became a full member. It would have been fine with the parish and the priest if I had sung the psalm, but I did not want to proclaim anything from the ambo unless I was a member of the visible Church.

    Even now, I would be reluctant to make a hard rule about cantoring, but I also don't have any non-Catholics in my choir currently so it's hard to say. In any event, this is one example of where I would defer to my priest.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw PaxMelodious
  • mmeladirectress
    Posts: 1,082
    Bombarde16,
    I will keep you and your good lady in my Rosary for the completion of your studies and the joy of Baptism. of course, I'm not the only one here who will be doing that.
    Thanked by 3AnimaVocis tomjaw Carol
  • mmeladirectress
    Posts: 1,082
    >> The reading of Scripture during a Eucharistic celebration in the Catholic Church is to be done by members of that Church

    brought up the memory of a Baptist coworker who once asked me, wide-eyed, "you mean you all have your own Bible??"
    (Well, no, but you do. Perhaps one reason for the regulation, I suppose.)
  • Elmar
    Posts: 504
    Ask the two voices about transubstantiation and you will clearly hear the difference… unfortunately the Catholic may also be Protestant…
    Yet, I guess that a large majority among faithful Catholics cannot tell the difference between Transsubstantation and Real Presence.
    Thanked by 2MichaelRaney tomjaw
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,187
    The Church's documents on ecumenical activities indicate the conditions under which a non-Catholic Christian may be allowed to present one of the Scripture readings at Mass.
    133. The reading of Scripture during a Eucharistic celebration in the Catholic Church is to be done by members of that Church. On exceptional occasions and for a just cause, the Bishop of the diocese may permit a member of another Church or ecclesial Community to take on the task of reader.

    134. In the Catholic Eucharistic Liturgy, the homily which forms part of the liturgy itself is reserved to the priest or deacon, since it is the presentation of the mysteries of faith and the norms of Christian living in accordance with Catholic teaching and tradition.

    135. For the reading of Scripture and preaching during other than Eucharistic celebrations, the norms given above (n. 118) are to be applied.


    I think it's reasonable to follow the same principles for cantors or psalmists; I'd be less strict regarding choir members, as they do not have a ministerial role as individuals. Note: the permission mentioned in n. 133 above applies to other Christians, and never to non-Christians.

    A note: some of the quotations that others have presented above make statements based on what is forbidden in the old Code of Canon Law; that 1917 edition has been replaced by the 1983 edition and subsequent emendations; and the current law is the law binding on all Catholics in the Latin Church, even those who attend Mass in the classic form. Therefore, restrictions based on the old Code may not apply if they have not been retained in the current Code or in other relevant documents.
  • In turn-about-fair-play, we may reflect that numerous non-Catholic but Christian churches would react in horror at the thought of a Catholic reading scriptures in their churches. I myself have been on the receiving end of such myopia, evidence of how all of us place grave respect on the purity of our own denominational ethos - as well we should.
  • Chonak,

    Thank you for the quotations from the current Code. My scruples don't come from the Code of 1917, because I'm not trying to fashion a "legalistic"* argument. Non-Catholics can sit in the pews, can pick up whatever hand Missal is available, sing whatever the congregation (or in the specific case, the choir) is slated to sing. What they can't do, by virtue of not being united in faith is, properly speaking, participate in the Mass. For the same reason that my son, nearly 27 years, ago couldn't receive extreme unction in the hospital before he was baptised, non-Catholics can't participate in the Mass. So, he was duly baptised there, under blue lights (whose name I can't spell) and with an IV in his arm (if I recall correctly).

    Jackson,

    It's not myopia. It's the acknowledgment that the unity it would demonstrate doesn't exist.


    *"Legalistic" can mean "according to a narrow reading of the law" in an entirely negative sense. I mean it here, rather, "I'm not basing myself in the canons at all, except salus animarum suprema lex". I do not mean the term pejoratively. I generally think that reading the law and applying it carefully is a good thing.
  • FSSPmusic
    Posts: 261
    It seems the answer the question is, depends on your parish and your pastor. A case could be made for either prohibition of non-Catholic cantors or for inclusion of same. Therefore, I would say this is a clear case of subsidiarity and discernment on a case-by-case basis.
    Agreed. I'm not entirely sure the ecumenical norms are even relevant in some cases. A non-Catholic hired by a parish to sing when no qualified Catholic is available seems like a very different situation from someone invited to sing a psalm as an official representative of a non-Catholic church or community for some exceptional occasion, permitted by the bishop.
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,072
    One would think that a prohibition against non-Catholic involvement in the music ministry would be GIRM-worthy. I don't remember seeing it, but I could be mistaken.

    Which is not to say that it's a good idea. Those positions should always fall to Catholics first.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • Jeffrey,

    Some things shouldn't need to be said.
  • The Jews regularly employ gentiles as their music directors (I know of one across from Rice University).
    I know of a lady, a friend of mine, who is Baptist and who has been musical director at a certain Catholic church since the seventies.
    I don't recommend this, but it does happen.
    The lady mentioned, unlike many Catholic musicians, has the best of taste in her music making.
  • Jackson,

    I am quite sure that what you write is accurate, true. I'm not persuaded that either factoid is a good thing.