"I Vow To Thee, My Country" for Memorial Day?
  • UrsiEngebretsen
    Posts: 11
    One of my choir members really, really wants me to use "I Vow To Thee, My Country" (THAXTED) as a recessional hymn for a Memorial Day Mass this upcoming Monday. My instinct is to tell him no, for the following reasons: 1) people associate it with England, not with America, and 2) the entire first verse is addressed to one's country, not to God, so I'm not sure it should even be used at Mass. But I wanted to run it past some people more knowledgeable than I before making a decision.

    Any advice or thoughts would be appreciated!
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    Patriotic, national, or political songs, do not belong in the “Universal Mass” of the Roman Catholic Church. We have discussed this on another thread dedicated to this issue with supporting documentation from the church. The church does not subscribe to various cultures, political jurisdictions or ecumenism. Jesus Christ is King over all the earth… it’s very clear, and it’s very simple.
    Thanked by 3LauraKaz UrsiEngebretsen tomjaw
  • LauraKaz
    Posts: 77
    You could always sing "O God Beyond All Praising," which has the same tune.
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen UrsiEngebretsen rich_enough
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    This text, by G.K.Chesterton, fits the tune.

    O God of earth and altar,
    bow down and hear our cry,
    our earthly rulers falter,
    our people drift and die;
    the walls of gold entomb us,
    the swords of scorn divide,
    take not thy thunder from us,
    but take away our pride.

    2 From all that terror teaches,
    from lies of tongue and pen,
    from all the easy speeches
    that comfort cruel men,
    from sale and profanation
    of honour and the sword,
    from sleep and from damnation,
    deliver us, good Lord!


    3 Tie in a living tether
    the prince and priest and thrall,
    bind all our lives together,
    smite us and save us all;
    in ire and exultation
    aflame with faith, and free,
    lift up a living nation,
    a single sword to thee.
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  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 402
    Thaxt is actually Holst’s Jupiter.

    OCP has a heretical Easter hymn set to it as well (Three Days).
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,887
    While I am not a fan of politicizing Mass, it is perfectly legitimate to "localize" it to some degree. First of all we have the principal of "inculturation" (sorely abused, but legitimate at any rate), second of all, patriotism is actually a virtue (St. Thomas teaches that we should cultivate a healthy sense of fealty to our Fatherland), and lastly, things such as local patronal feasts are to be observed, even when they are not "universal". St. So-and-So's feast day isn't celebrated by everyone, but it sure is celebrated at St. So-and-so's parish (one hopes at least). So to outright ignore something important culturally speaking seems to me a case of being obtuse just for the sake of it. That said, all masses in America on July 4th shouldn't turn into patriotic sing-alongs either... but a nod of a single well-chosen hymn hardly seems inappropriate in the grand scheme of things.
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  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Serviam,


    The "local" feasts don't include Independence Day. They don't include this one because
    1)it celebrates separatism; 2)the country it initiated isn't Catholic England restored, but Enlightenment-based, Masonic-realised anti-Catholic America.
  • CGM
    Posts: 698
    The Chesterton text doesn't exactly fit the tune, since the tune requires 12-line stanzas, and Chesterton's stanzas are only 8 lines apiece.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen LauraKaz
  • Don9of11Don9of11
    Posts: 708
    I thought I might suggest a few hymns from The Holy Cross Hymnal by William Cardinal O'Connell. https://archive.org/details/holycral00ocon

    With the exceptiion of the Holy Name Hymn and Prayer for a Perfect Life, I do not know the melodies for the rest of the hymns. There are three that could be used for a Memorial Day Mass. 1) The Cross and the Flag; 2) Faith and Fatherland; 3) God of our Fathers

    There is also a hymn from the Pius X Hymnal (see attached), Prayer of a Soldier written by Joyce Kilmer where he compares the journey of a soldier to Christ passion on the Cross.

    I can provide full scores for the O'Connell hymns. If you are interested, PM and I can scan them for you.
    Prayer of a Soldier.pdf
    128K
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  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    While I am not a fan of politicizing Mass, it is perfectly legitimate to "localize" it to some degree. First of all we have the principal of "inculturation" (sorely abused, but legitimate at any rate), second of all, patriotism is actually a virtue (St. Thomas teaches that we should cultivate a healthy sense of fealty to our Fatherland), and lastly, things such as local patronal feasts are to be observed, even when they are not "universal". St. So-and-So's feast day isn't celebrated by everyone, but it sure is celebrated at St. So-and-so's parish (one hopes at least). So to outright ignore something important culturally speaking seems to me a case of being obtuse just for the sake of it. That said, all masses in America on July 4th shouldn't turn into patriotic sing-alongs either... but a nod of a single well-chosen hymn hardly seems inappropriate in the grand scheme of things.


    I am not saying we should not be patriotic... I am saying the Mass is no place for political or cultural differences... celebrating local saints is entirely acceptable and does not fall into the same category.

    As far as "nodding" goes, well... this is spot on...=

    The "local" feasts don't include Independence Day. They don't include this one because
    1)it celebrates separatism; 2)the country it initiated isn't Catholic England restored, but Enlightenment-based, Masonic-realised anti-Catholic America.
    Please refer to the encyclical on Americanism

    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/leo13/l13teste.htm
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    You know your congregation and pastor better than any of us. No one here will be there to hear what you do to begin with. There are probably nuances and people interactions we can't possibly know. Use your best judgement and don't worry about it.
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,887
    Please refer to the encyclical on Americanism
    Why? I would offer the same comments to an Austrian or an Australian. The concept has nothing to do with America in se.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Serviam,

    Americanism is a specific heresy. I think it's Pope Leo XIII who calls it that for the first time, but I'll look it up to be sure.
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,887
    I understand that. My point is, it doesn’t seem unreasonable to acknowledge one’s fealty to one’s country in a hymn, especially if the mass is specifically tied to a commemoration which is important to a country. This has nothing to do with “Americanism”. I expect the French to sing something special on their special days, Americans to do likewise, Austrians too, and everyone else, for that matter. That’s my point.

    It’s also one thing if you’re ignoring a proper liturgical day to force a political bent to mass (which is why I don’t do much the Sunday closest to July 4th) but it’s also OK to have a random weekday mass specifically to commemorate a special day. It’s ludicrous to think that a special, extra mass on a Monday couldn’t include a patriotic hymn.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Serviam,

    Quite by accident, I suspect, you've put your finger on an insuperable obstacle to continuing the fiction that the EF and the OF are the same rite.

    Could hymns be used in the procession and recession in the vernacular? I think so.
    Should one follow the Germans on this one? I'll pass on that.
    Should those slots for hymns be contraliturgical? I don't see how.
    What is allowed at the OF (or even encouraged in some places) is flatly forbidden in the EF.


    Patriotism is a virtue, but you could hardly countenance singing La Marseillaise before Mass on July 14. I can't see My Country 'tis of thee or O say, can you see by the dawn's early light on July 4th. I can understand God of Our Fathers, and I can understand Eternal Father, Strong to Save near one of the memorials, but it couldn't be within the Mass.
  • davido
    Posts: 942
    Chris, do you consider the Salvum fac a liturgical abuse?
    I saw a video of them singing God Save the King at the end of mass at Brompton Oratory after Elizabeth II died. What about that display of specific national patriotism?
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    @Davido The Manual of Prayers published by the Bishops of England and Wales (1886) prescribed the Domine Salvum fac, to be sung after the principal Sunday Mass. Recently they have republished this prayer in both Latin and English asking that it be said. So unlikely to be an abuse...

    Unusually the national anthem is a also prayer... not that I am happy when it is sung after Mass, we have the Domine Salvum already.
    Thanked by 1Chris Garton-Zavesky
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Davido,

    A required prayer can hardly be an abuse, can it?
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,887
    CGZ, you'll note that I've never claimed that the two are the same rite. Quite the contrary, I've long-rejected the idea that they are the same rite. (That's not to say I find the new rite illicit; just... deficient.) One may be mildly "derived" from the other, but then you're dealing with a variation on a theme at best. I digress.

    It's also ironic that you mentioned La Marseillaise, because I almost mentioned that as a specific exception as something I loathe and think has no place in church. Considering its very anti-catholic sentiment and history, I cringe every time I hear Latry play it at ND.

    You'll also note that I said patriotic hymns, not secular anthems dressed up as hymns (ie- Battle hymn of the Republic, My Country Tis of Thee, etc.) These latter have no business being in church. But hymns like Eternal Father Strong to Save, or God of our Fathers, Whose Almighty Hand, etc. seem perfectly legitimate nods to extra-liturgical observances, and hardly do damage to Mass. They are fully-fledged prayers, alas.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Serviam,

    I think I don't remember you ever saying they were the same rite, but a great many people cling to the idea. Nevertheless, your point seems to highlight the difference, making it even harder for some to claim that they are the same rite.

    I'm glad you'll repudiate La Marseillaise, as inappropriate for Mass.

    I'll accept the difference between "patriotic hymns" and "secular anthems dressed up as hymns", and I'm pleased that you and I agree on the idea that one has no place at Mass.

    Thanked by 2francis ServiamScores
  • Chrism
    Posts: 872
    The "local" feasts don't include Independence Day.


    Yes, they do. The optional memorial for Independence Day is the mass Da Pacem with proper collects and even a proper Preface written for the day, where we recall that "[Christ's] message took form in the vision of our founding fathers as they fashioned a nation where we might live as one."

    Thanked by 1Liam
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    The liturgical year is also no stranger to historic events that took place after biblical times. The 1962 General Calendar, for example, has commemorations of pivotal battles (Belgrade, Lepanto, Vienna, Rome) and important ecumenical councils (Ephesus).

    Yet the commemoration of these events follows two rules. First, the event itself is of special significance to Church history. The Battles of Belgrade (1456), Lepanto (1570), and Vienna (1683) were key military victories by Catholics to stop the Muslim conquest of Europe. The 1849 defeat of the insurgents of the Roman Republic by the French army allowed the Pope to return to Rome from exile. The Council of Ephesus, which defined Mary as the Mother of God, provided a theological understanding of Marian devotion.

    However—and this brings us to the second rule—these events are never commemorated directly, but subordinated to a mystery of Christ, His mother, or the Saints. There is no “Battle of Lepanto” on the calendar, but there is a feast of the Holy Rosary (October 7) which was instituted in gratitude for the battle’s outcome. Nor is there a “Battle of Belgrade,” a “Battle of Vienna,” or a “Liberation of Rome,” but there are feasts of the Transfiguration (August 6), of the Holy Name of Mary (September 12), and of the Most Precious Blood (July 1). Even a sacred ecumenical Council like that of Ephesus does not appear as such, but as the feast of the Maternity of the Blessed Virgin Mary (October 11).

    The inclusion of American civic holidays on the Church calendar—the Proper Calendar for the Dioceses of the United States of America lists July 4 as “Independence Day”—violates both these principles. American Catholics can certainly be grateful for the many blessings the Founding has given them, but Independence Day is no more a Catholic event than Napoleon’s defeat at Waterloo: it is not liturgically significant. Sadly, it sometimes seems that the contemporary Church in America spends half her time demoting the sacred to the level of the secular (in the case of irreverent Masses) and the other half elevating the secular to the level of the sacred.

    Finally, according to Vatican II’s Sacrosanctum Concilium, “there must be no innovations unless the good of the Church genuinely and certainly requires them” (23). It is difficult to see how the Mass for Independence Day meets this criterion.

    Michael P. Foley


    Yes, they do. The optional memorial for Independence Day is the mass Da Pacem with proper collects and even a proper Preface written for the day, where we recall that "[Christ's] message took form in the vision of our founding fathers as they fashioned a nation where we might live as one."
    I guess the point I am making is that this is a novel undertaking by our Americanized bishops, and it is attached to the NO... not the Roman Calendar.

    It plays into this...

    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/leo13/l13teste.htm
    Thanked by 2ServiamScores LauraKaz
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Chrism,

    I dislike disagreeing with people vehemently, so I shall try to be measured in my response. Independence Day stands as the day we (Americans) declared that we weren't subject to legitimate authority*, and began the process of founding a country based on (inter alia) indifferentism, amorality, the Rights of Man and other ideas incompatible with the Catholic faith. To celebrate such with a proper Mass is.... incongruous with the truth.



    *By 1776, the English were in their 3rd century of revolt against the Church, but the colonies were subject to the English Crown, to whom they owed their existence. I think, but am willing to be corrected on this point, the Stuart line had died out by this time, and the older houses were mostly a distant memory.
  • Chrism
    Posts: 872
    It's an optional memorial, you don't have to remember it either on the day or proximately. But it is not worth damaging the unity of the church by using an anathematical tone against those who do.

    FWIW, Americans have never been English because the limits of England are defined by jus soli. Under the law and customs of the English, proper Englishness stops at England's border, beyond which are wogs of different degrees. Anglophiles never really get this.

    Even notwithstanding the witness of Bl. John Felton, absolute obedience to one's own king, let alone a foreign crown governing unjustly, is not part of Catholic moral theory.
  • Chrism
    Posts: 872
    However—and this brings us to the second rule—these events are never commemorated directly, but subordinated to a mystery of Christ, His mother, or the Saints. There is no “Battle of Lepanto” on the calendar....


    But there is a Feast of the Conquest of Granada.

    One might argue that July 4th is somehow less Catholic than crusaders taking over Spain and converting everyone to Catholicism. But what rule should we propose for deciding whether to program hymns for a day? Look at the calendar, or look at the calendar and judge?

    by our Americanized bishops


    Not that you shouldn't judge, if local liturgical authority is heretical then it has no force of law, but this has a rescript from the Vatican. You might judge them as well (since they are merely confirming local authority, and not acting with universal authority which is indefectible), but of what, it isn't clear? I presume not Americanism.

    and it is attached to the NO... not the Roman Calendar


    So the EF is exempt from this argument for allowing these hymns, but since EF hymn rules are minimal and customary, you don't need to have a calendar entry to justify aptness, you just need the celebrant to bless it.
  • Chrism
    Posts: 872
    Why? I would offer the same comments to an Austrian or an Australian.


    Sounds like American particularism :-)
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    The EF no longer exists... the TLM rarely includes hymns in the Mass. If it does they are always in Latin.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Chrism
    Posts: 872
    the TLM rarely includes hymns in the Mass. If it does they are always in Latin.


    Yes, that's one reason why the rules are minimal and customary: the vernacular hymns (and there are hymns!) are considered "outside of Mass" because they are either sung by the people who happen to be gathering at Low Mass, or even by the choir before/after singing High Mass itself.
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,887
    I will leave this thread with one thought: Memorial Day is, in essence, a mini-All Souls Day, which is to say, a day of requiem for the [American military] deceased. I certainly understand wishing to ignore the 4th, liturgically speaking, but the OP was asking about a Memorial Day Mass. While "Memorial Day" isn't the liturgical day, (and hence this debate,) it is the reason that Mass is being offered in the case of the OP. In this particular instance, a hymn appropriate for a requiem, rather than a patriotic hymn, might be the most appropriate nod. I can only presume the intention of the Mass (I mean this in the formal sense) will be offered for the deceased.
    Thanked by 4Chris Garton-Zavesky CHGiffen AnimaVocis hilluminar
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Chrism,

    If this
    Independence Day stands as the day we (Americans) declared that we weren't subject to legitimate authority*, and began the process of founding a country based on (inter alia) indifferentism, amorality, the Rights of Man and other ideas incompatible with the Catholic faith. To celebrate such with a proper Mass is.... incongruous with the truth.

    damages the unity of the Church one should ask who's measuring that unity, and if it sounds like an anathema to you, I suggest that you read it more carefully.

    Here, there is some slight of hand going on...

    Under the law and customs of the English, proper Englishness stops at England's border, beyond which are wogs of different degrees. Anglophiles never really get this.


    If the crown colonies are crown colonies, and if the king and his government at Whitehall behave as if the colonies are colonies, and if the colonists appeal to His Majesty's government ......

    I haven't heard/read the word "wogs" in quite some time. For newbies here, a fuller form of the word is "polywogs".
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,187
    "The English Are Best"
    Flanders & Swann
    https://youtu.be/m4zyfwtDIHE
    Thanked by 3Chrism Chris Garton-Zavesky tomjaw
  • Chrism
    Posts: 872
    If the crown colonies are crown colonies, and if the king and his government at Whitehall behave as if the colonies are colonies, and if the colonists appeal to His Majesty's government


    I'm curious if you feel the same way about Kenya.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    To address the OP's question on a particular basis:

    Even if IVTTMC were liturgically appropriate in some contexts, its text is specifically framed for a country with a monarchical head. The phrase in the second verse "We may not see her King" draws a contrast with the worldly kingdom of the first verse, whose king presumably can be seen.

    I don't think that is apt for use for the USA's Memorial Day.
    Thanked by 4Chris Garton-Zavesky Nathan_the_Organist CHGiffen LauraKaz
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    Liam

    Interesting observation. (I didn’t really look at the specifics of the particular hymn, but was addressing the theological foundation of political expression being included in the liturgy.)
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    The poem from which the two vv set to music was originally titled "The Two Fatherlands", so there's a contrast drawn between the two countries described in those vv:

    I vow to thee, my country, all earthly things above,
    Entire and whole and perfect, the service of my love;
    The love that asks no questions, the love that stands the test,
    That lays upon the altar the dearest and the best;
    The love that never falters, the love that pays the price,
    The love that makes undaunted the final sacrifice.

    And there's another country, I've heard of long ago,
    Most dear to them that love her, most great to them that know;
    We may not count her armies, we may not see her King;
    Her fortress is a faithful heart, her pride is suffering;
    And soul by soul and silently her shining bounds increase,
    And her ways are ways of gentleness, and all her paths are peace.

    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • davido
    Posts: 942
    A required prayer can hardly be an abuse, can it?


    Since there are American holidays with official liturgies, this statement puts you in an awkward position, Chris.

    For the OP, yes, I vow to thee my country is a perfect hymn text for the sentiments of Memorial Day.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Davido,

    I understand the point you're raising, but I'm not necessarily in an awkward position.

    Celebrating Mothers' Day, in May, is consistent with honoring the Mother of the Word Incarnate.

    Juneteenth should never have a liturgy in the Church.
    Columbus Day, given that he made his voyage at least in part to bring the faith to the people of the Orient, could be reconciled, but with difficulty.

    St. Junipero Serra, St. Fulton Sheen -- please, God, soon-- , St. Elizabeth Ann Seton, and others are remembered on the calendar not because they were Americans but because they are saints.

    Thanksgiving is not entirely unlike Columbus Day. We're reminded that Eucharist means thanksgiving, but the origin of the feast brings forward heretics of many stripes.

    God doesn't lie. The Pope enjoys the charism of infallibility in certain very limited conditions. God doesn't guarantee that bishops won't do stupid things.
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