Question about improvising on chant themes
  • DavidOLGCDavidOLGC
    Posts: 88
    Hi to all organists,

    I have a question about the way any of you may improvise on themes from Gregorian chants.

    My pastor appreciates it when instead of playing hymns, I use an appropriate chant theme as the basis of an improvisation.

    So, since many of you are better trained organists than I am, and are more knowledgeable than I am, I have a few questions.

    First, do you use modern notation or do you use the original square note versions?

    Next, do you simply play the chant with a basic improvised accompaniment or do you use the theme itself for variations?

    Finally, what styles do you use for such improvisation?

    My pastor appreciates using chant in all forms, but really is fond of the French style of the last 100-odd years or so.

    Any thought and suggestions would be very welcome.

    David
  • 32ContraBombarde32ContraBombarde
    Posts: 138
    I always reference the square notes (or just memorized chant themes at this point). Helps keep the nature of the thing front of mind.

    You can certainly start with just an improvised accompaniment and a solo stop for the melody (even just a nice flute over strings works well). But I tend to use the theme for variations, or just as inspiration. I think it's really critical to keep the modal nature of the chant in mind. It doesn't mean your improv has to stay in that mode, but just remember that chant is modal by nature, and that can be a bit of a guidepost for both harmony and melodic improv.

    As for style, the sky is the limit. I improvise anything from baroque-style pseudo fugues (pseudo because I'm just not good enough to actually improvise a true multi-part fugue on the fly) & counterpoint to Messiaen-style "atmospheric" improvs, and everything in between. Depends on the instrument, the room, the congregation, the liturgical season, the motif I'm improvising on, the text that goes with, the moment in which I'm improvising (is it a prelude, Communion, postlude?), etc.

    I'm a huge fan of the French school as well, so that definitely inspires a lot of my playing.

    IMO, the best thing you can do for your improv is to listen to great improvisors (Olivier Latry, Daniel Roth, David Briggs, Pierre Cochereau, et. al.), and spend a lot of your practice time improvising on various modes, melodies, hymns, etc. Become comfortable with it.

    I don't know if it will be helpful, but I made a video a few years ago with some tips to start improvising: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZzZ1zvgA7g
    Thanked by 6Bri DavidOLGC ServiamScores denroden LauraKaz veromary
  • OMagnumMysterium
    Posts: 259
    I don't have too much experience myself, but I'll offer what I can.

    I always just go from the square notes, and write the chord names (in Solfege) above the notes where I would want to change chords. Most of what I do I got from Patrick Torsell's videos on YouTube. I would definitely recommend watching his videos about accompanying each of the chant modes, plus he has some good videos about improvisation on chant too.

    The way I try to do it, organ improvisations are just accompaniment without the singers, and then you make it interesting/different by changing registration, speed, switching sections around, etc.

    Here's what I put together for an Easter Improvisation. Hopefully you can see the picture well enough to make out my Solfege scribbles. I just took three different Easter chants, all in mode 6 (which is super easy to find chords for) and put them in a binder with my chords written in. The idea was that I could just switch between different sections until time was up. All manuals, no pedals, and I stuck with soft flutes since it was for right after Communion.

    If I ever wanted to do something complicated, like play a fugue or counterpoint on a chant motif, I would definitely write that out ahead of time in modern notation, and give myself at least a month to prepare it, because I'm an amateur.

    Playing a melody with a pedal drone could also have good results for not much work.

    Overall, I think it's all just about considering the mood of the part of the liturgical year, and the part of the Mass, that you're at, and then choosing registration and speed that corresponds to what Holy Mother Church is trying to convey to the faithful at that moment. I think repeating themes from the propers is always a good option. It really doesn't have to be complicated or musically advanced, just appropriate to the context.
    The best organists I know fake it half the time anyway.
    Easter Improv.jpg
    4096 x 3072 - 3M
    Thanked by 3Bri DavidOLGC LauraKaz
  • DavidOLGCDavidOLGC
    Posts: 88
    Thanks folks, you present many good ideas. I have some homework to do...particularly getting better at reading off of square notes. I can read it, but I feel much more secure working with staff notation.
    Thanked by 132ContraBombarde
  • liampmcdonough
    Posts: 297
    I practice two part baroque style improvisation with the chant on a cornet, solo stop, or the louder harmonic flute and an 8' flute in the other hand.

    The modes lend themselves to improvised organum too. Play the melody in parallel 4ths, 5ths, or 6ths in one hand, with soft strings in the other or a slow moving melody with a reed in the other.

    Make the first 5 notes an A theme and the next 5 notes a B theme, and make a new melody from theme where you play the A theme 3 times in succession transposed 2nd or a 3rd each time, and then the B theme 3 times in like manner.

    Play a chorale like movement with a big plenum, melody in the pedal on reed chorus, manuals coupled, accompaniment in the manuals moving in contrary motion

    Play a fanfare, all reeds coupled, first 5 notes of the melody in parallell 5ths, in various keys

    These are the things I do with some frequency, or assembled together as a 3 movement postlude.
    Thanked by 4DavidOLGC OMagnumMysterium LauraKaz Bri
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,048
    It can also be helpful to play and study compositions based on chant themes by such composers as Dupré, Peeters, Langlais, Gerald Near, etc. - and even those using more "standard" harmonies such as Healy Willan. Many are easy enough to be readily sight-readable. I'm sure many of these works started out as improvisations.
    Thanked by 1DavidOLGC
  • DavidOLGCDavidOLGC
    Posts: 88
    "Many are easy enough to be readily sight-readable"

    Although I am a pro level reader on guitar, bass and mandolin, my organ reading skills are, shall we say, still in need of improvement!

    Yes, I do practice reading on organ, but I don't think my reading is at the same level as most of you trained organists.

    But I have been studying those works including analyzing them.
    Thanked by 1rich_enough
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,048
    True enough - Not many of the Langlais or Dupre are very sight-readable! But I was thinking more of the pieces in this collection by Flor Peeters and Dom Gregory Murray, for example.
    Thanked by 1DavidOLGC
  • DavidOLGCDavidOLGC
    Posts: 88
    That's a great idea but when I went to CC Watershed, they link to Sheet Music PLus with this message about the 148 Interludes for Organ:

    "Not Available

    This item is currently unavailable
    for purchase."

    But thanks anyway.
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,886
    It is not unavailable if you do some yahoogling (which I just did). A number of european publishers have it on offer (directly from Kevin Mayhew or via 3rd parties). I found it cheapest to get to the USA via JWPepper as the other options had exorbitant shipping costs (as much as the book itself). I think the reason the sheetmusicplus link is broken is that a new edition of the book is now on offer. (At least, the cover appears changed, and the sample pages on the KM website appear to be a different engraving than the sample supplied by CCW.)
    Thanked by 1DavidOLGC
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,886
    One other idea for improvising, which I haven't noticed be mentioned yet, is that CCW does offer a scan of a fascinating 1909 Weinman gradual (there's also a vesperbuch) which has squarenote plainchant on 5 line staves with modern clefs. It makes reading chant extraordinarily easy to read if you're not comfortable thinking in terms of scale degress / solfege / chant clefs. For some things I find this book a real help (although for others, it's easier to have the more "abstract" feeling chant clefs because it's easier for my brain to transpose to other keys, vs. ignoring modern clefs and key signatures.)

    https://www.ccwatershed.org/2015/08/25/most-astounding-graduale-1909-modern-staves/
    Thanked by 1DavidOLGC
  • DavidOLGCDavidOLGC
    Posts: 88
    Thanks so much - and I already do use many of the musical items on CCWatershed, including that 1909 Weinman graduale. Additionally, I often pull music from several of the graduale and kyriale books that are in modern notation. I've also used the Lalande Library for source material too.

    I can read square notes, but am more secure improvising during Mass with 5 line staff notation. I'm also partial to the 3 volumes of the Mathias Graduale.

    I certainly appreciate all of the musical suggestions that you and the other forum members have made.

  • Dixit_Dominus_44
    Posts: 195
    Here's the book I use to accompany plainsong directly from the Antiphonale Romanum :

    https://www.ccwatershed.org/2022/10/11/pdf-download-1915-gregorian-vesperale-printed-on-five-lines-651-pages/

    Essentially, it's Gregorian chant written on a 5-line-Stave, but not in modern notation; instead, it uses the medieval box notation. Some of the pieces even have chords written in underneath the Latin words.
    Thanked by 1DavidOLGC
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,048
    @DavidOLGC

    Sorry for the wrong link above -
    here
    is the link to the free pdf of the book I had in mind, with short chant-based interludes by Murray and Peeters, among others.
    Thanked by 1DavidOLGC
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,886
    FWIW, there are some gems in that collection, however it's worth making your own printing of the PDF. I printed my own on the copier at church, and I ordered the "official" copy and my printing was substantially nicer than the one I purchased.
    Thanked by 2rich_enough DavidOLGC
  • PhilipPowell
    Posts: 116
    Here are a few collections I use - I am a big fan of anything by Dom Murray:

    https://www.kevinmayhew.com/products/148-interludes-for-organ-1400350
    Short Interludes - Dom Murray.pdf
    2M
    Organ Music Based on Gregorian Themes.pdf
    7M
    Organ Interludes.pdf
    7M
    Interludes with Pedals.pdf
    14M
    Thanked by 2ServiamScores DavidOLGC
  • DavidOLGCDavidOLGC
    Posts: 88
    I'd like to add a selection called "Der kirchliche Organist" which has short examples in the various modes:

    https://www.classical-sheet-music.eu/free-sheet-music-01_Organ_Album-Organ-page-1

    also go to page 2

    https://www.classical-sheet-music.eu/free-sheet-music-1000_Compositions-Organ-page-1

    and a few other links at this site:

    https://www.classical-sheet-music.eu/free-sheet-music-De_Macq-Organ-page-1

    https://www.classical-sheet-music.eu/free-sheet-music-Froberger-page-1
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