Well that's the last time I do Tenebrae: Antisemitism in the liturgy
  • DCM
    Posts: 70
    Decided to try reciting the traditional Tenebrae for the first time last night, doing Matins and Lauds of Good Friday in the dead of night. Found a pdf over at ccwatershed, queued up a Youtube playlist of the antiphons and long responsories, had my little card of Meinrad tones for the psalms and Lamentations (tone 6 is perfect for the latter). It was going well until the second Nocturne, when Augustine's antisemitic diatribe about the "wicked Jews" brought it a screeching halt. "But ye, O ye Jews, ye have killed Him! How did ye kill him? With the sword of the tongue, for ye had whet your tongues." "Tenebrae factae sunt, dum crucifixissent Jesum Judaei: Darkness fell when the Jews crucified Jesus."

    It's upsetting to me that, 58 years after Nostra Aetate and over 60 since Pope John took the first steps to attack Christian antisemitism, there are still Catholics who pray this every year and find it beautiful. Frankly, things like this deserved to be reformed out of existence.

    I am just going to cobble something together if I ever try something extra again.
    Thanked by 1Marc Cerisier
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    This Augustine...
    Augustine of Hippo (13 November 354 – 28 August 430), also known as Saint Augustine, was a theologian and philosopher of Berber origin and the bishop of Hippo Regius in Numidia, Roman North Africa. His writings influenced the development of Western philosophy and Western Christianity, and he is viewed as one of the most important Church Fathers of the Latin Church in the Patristic Period. His many important works include The City of God, On Christian Doctrine, and Confessions.

  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,411
    Many of the Fathers and many mediaeval saints were violently anti Semitic in their writings, preaching, and acts. Anti Semitism is yet not unheard of today. We would likely be surprised at those who yet have this hatred within them and are unashamed to spew it about.

    In balance, however, we should not excuse the Jews who did shout for him to be crucified and shrieked '...let his blood be on us' and implored Pilate to crucify him for them.
    There is enough guilt for all, including those who lived in Jesus' time and were instrumental in his death.

    This is not to hate Jews, nor does it excuse Jesus' contemporaries from their part in the actual deed.


    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,086
    Hmm, don't do the Office, so never encountered that. I'm a little surprised since Trent cleaned up the Victimae Paschali. And of course this afternoon we prayed for the Jews, as well as pagans and heretics, which all have as their commonality that, absent the grace of conversion, they are all headed to Hell. Whoops, is that anti-Semitic to say?

    Personally, I think this thread should be closed, because any real discussion of the topic is forbidden as detrimental to the public image of the CMAA. Besides, we all know that Jesus was really killed through a conspiracy of DCM, tomjaw, Osborn, Quick, and a few billion others. Anyone on here not responsible for the death of Christ, please raise your hand.
    Thanked by 6Chrism ServiamScores LauraKaz tomjaw OMagnumMysterium Julius_Krüger
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,212
    Here's the Good Friday reading from the Office of Readings, a passage from St John Chrysostom; If you break it up into a few pieces, you could substitute it for Augustine's text on the Psalms.

    gf.pdf
    28K
  • NihilNominisNihilNominis
    Posts: 1,021
    Acts 2: 36?

    Augustine isn’t imputing individual guilt to all living Jews, any more than
    St Peter.
    Thanked by 7PhilipPowell tomjaw ServiamScores CHGiffen francis M. Jackson Osborn rich_enough
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    Here is Psalm 63 the Psalm St Augustine is commenting on...
    1 Unto the end, a psalm for David. 2 Hear, O God, my prayer, when I make supplication to thee: deliver my soul from the fear of the enemy. 3 Thou hast protected me from the assembly of the malignant; from the multitude of the workers of iniquity. 4 For they have whetted their tongues like a sword; they have bent their bow a bitter thing, 5 To shoot in secret the undefiled. 6 They will shoot at him on a sudden, and will not fear: they are resolute in wickedness. They have talked of hiding snares; they have said: Who shall see them? 7 They have searched after iniquities: they have failed in their search. Man shall come to a deep heart: 8 And God shall be exalted. The arrows of children are their wounds: 9 And their tongues against them are made weak. All that saw them were troubled; 10 And every man was afraid. And they declared the works of God: and understood his doings. 11 The just shall rejoice in the Lord, and shall hope in him: and all the upright in heart shall be praised.

    Also reading the following will clarify what the psalm is talking aboutMatthew 26 1-5
    Matthew 26 14-15 & 59-68
    Matthew 27
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  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,086
    Another point: discussions of who killed Jesus are moot because Jesus wasn't killed; he laid down his life. I think that Scripture is clear that, had He so chosen, He could have continued to evade the authorities as He had before, or could have called down 12 legions of angels. Fortunately for us, he chose otherwise.
    Thanked by 3LauraKaz Carol CHGiffen
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    DCM,

    Take a breath, and try this thought experiment.

    For "Jews" substitute "Chosen People of God", which is, after all, correct.

    If Augustine rails against the Jews for killing God, is it possible that he was expressing something similar to the disappointment of a loyal subject discovering a traitor in his king's midst -- or, say, a bishop betraying His Eucharistic Lord?

    See, I don't think he's passing judgment on the Jews, so much as announcing that the judgment has been pronounced, and that they have had many opportunities to repent but have rejected them -- a statement which has much support in Holy Writ, both in the New and in the Old Testament.
    Thanked by 3tomjaw ServiamScores LauraKaz
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,212
    It might be apt to consider that Augustine is addressing the people of our Lord's time, or possibly his own time, but not ours.
    Thanked by 5CHGiffen sdtalley3 tomjaw ServiamScores LauraKaz
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,230
    Jeff Quick: your surmisal about 'fault' for killing Jesus is way off track.

    It was Trump.
    Thanked by 6tomjaw CHGiffen francis ServiamScores Jeffrey Quick LauraKaz
  • francis
    Posts: 10,814
    Actually, the Pharisees stole Jesus’ laptop and that was the beginning of the end.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Dad, Francis,

    I meant mine as a serious comment, but you're apparently having a field day. Is it the silliness of the question?
  • francis
    Posts: 10,814
    CGZ

    Your point is well taken. But those who accuse the Catholic Church as anti-semetic, in my mind, are expressing the attitude of those very souls who crucified Christ.

    We all must remember that the “Mystery of Iniquity” will appear, and we are now seeing the very foreshadowing thereof.

    We all must choose our allegiance wisely lest we find ourself fighting against God himself.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,086
    It was absolutely Trump. And Woodrow Wilson.
    If you want to blame the Roman Empire, who is the heir to Rome as current global hegemon?
    Thanked by 1Julius_Krüger
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