Congregational Domine Salvum fac regem nostrum Carolum
  • A setting of the Domine Salvum Fac for those who sing it after Mass. It is congregational.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,722
    Here are the 3 settings found in various English books,
    The first is from Plainsong for Schools, the other two are from the English Benedictine Supplement 1926.
  • Here it is on A5 paper with an English translation, in the style of the classic version that tomjaw has also referenced; I've eliminated the references to the Queen since those are not generally part of the prayer.

    Edited the accent in Cárolus from Carólus. (Edited 2: I am only slowly getting used to using the babel package which includes a slightly modified punctuation for ecclesiastical Latin typesetting; I think it's an improvement on the default.)

    Thanked by 2tomjaw CHGiffen
  • DL
    Posts: 72
    I think Missal Latin prefers Cárolus/um/i (CArolus) as opposed to Carólus&c (CaROlus) since this is what it does for Charles Borromeo.
    Thanked by 1Jacques Perrière
  • One recording posted by the Latin Mass Society in UK:
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Here is a version suggested by our priests.
    A change was made on the notes over 'Cárolum'.
    To me it sounds better to sing, what do you think?

    Added to GregoBase:
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • I don't know if one is easier or not. I think it's actually a fairly tricky chant. But that said, people seem to have already standardized on just taking the pre-existing chant, changing the name, and deleting a syllable…
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,722
    Here is the previous version from Plainsong for Schools 1940 ed. image
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  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,722
    One of our choir members has suggested a third option of how to modify the melody to fit the words. We have two problems in changing the melody,
    1. The organ accompaniment in Plainsong for schools, may not work with moving the clivis.
    2. The congregation will be used to singing the clivis on the first syllable of the monarch's name.

    Well we will sing the version I prepared above and see how it goes!

    Edit, it all went well today!
  • Josh
    Posts: 103
    Note that the collect should read increménta (neuter plural) not increméntum (neuter singular).
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,722
    @Josh I have been assured that increménta (neuter plural) is correct by several Latinists... But the 'Liturgical' books have increméntum (neuter singular), as you can see from the above scan of Plainsong for schools and the copy of Ritus servandus 1926 ed. a colleague has.

    I am unsure if I have the authority to 'correct' those books... I am thinking of producing a second set of resources with the correct Latin and allow people to choose!
  • Chrism
    Posts: 869
    Here is a version suggested by our priests.
    A change was made on the notes over 'Cárolum'.
    To me it sounds better to sing, what do you think?

    I think it seems to accent the second syllable, wondering if this would be better.
    240 x 240 - 12K
  • As incrementum means growth, ... which is an uncountable noun (mass noun), English would not use the plural, but Latin seems not to take a fixed view, admitting both.
    incrēmentum , i, n. incresco,
    I.growth, increase, augmentation (class.).
    I. Lit., of plants and animals: “quid ego vitium satus, ortus, incrementa commemorem?” Cic. Sen. 15, 52:
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Chrism
    Posts: 869
    Incidentally Charles is the first monarch of England since Queen Anne (d. 1714) whose Latin name has an accent on the first syllable. (Besides the other two King Charleses, the only other I can think of is King Stephen).

    According to Wikipedia, the practice of praying the Domine salvum fac was French in origin and only imported into England in the generations following the conquest of Quebec (1763). A 1740's example of the prayer in an English (albeit Jacobite) context, set to a different chant tune, is found in a manuscript attribute to John Wade, who spent much of his career in France and Belgium.

    I'm not sure when or where the Traditor autem melody was applied to the prayer, but there may be extant examples of the prayer set for other "first syllable" kings of Europe, for example Charles X of France (1824-1830), or the kings of Portugal (e.g., Peter and Charles).
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • @Chrism: interesting idea; no problem if you take this version as your own best.
    Besides, I don't think there is an official version yet...

    By the way, instead of:
    Cá(fe!d)ro(d)lum :(d.) (:)

    you could use one virga + two punctum inclinatum:
    Cá(fvED)ro(d)lum :(d.) (:)

    Our choir sung the following version twice already, it sounded alright for us so we are going to keep it:
    It was crafted by two of our priests, talented singers. I endorse their creation.
    The first accented syllable 'Cá' seems to have focused the attention, thinking more notes should be attributed to it, but another word has the accent on the first syllable: «Dóminum» (accusative case like "Cárolum"). Maybe we could review the whole Graduale repertoire to see how many notes are usually distributed over the three syllables of Dóminus/-e/-um?

    Now listen what sounds better when you sing:
    « Dó - mi - i - num » (score 18124)
    « Dó - ó - ó - mi - num » (your score)

    « Dó - mi - i - num » flows naturally,
    « Dó - ó - ó - mi - num » : that doesn't really work, does it? like Mozart would say to Salieri... :-)

    Anyway, keep bringing new ideas, always interesting to see what you guys come up with.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Elmar
    Posts: 502
    I have been assured that increménta (neuter plural) is correct by several Latinists... But the 'Liturgical' books have increméntum (neuter singular)
    Well, I'm not a latinist but I tend to read

    virtútum étiam ómnium percípiat increméntum
    that he may also earn an increase in all virtues

    where increase in singular seems correct, even though it pertains to many virtues.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Chrism
    Posts: 869
    « Dó - ó - ó - mi - num »

    I think it's rather,

    « Do - o - ó - mi - num »

    With the accent being expressed only on the last note, like a reverb.

    In the past examples we've seen, the accented syllable is always on the re and ictus. I think it sings better that way, but I'd be interested if you heard the congregation sing CArolum or caROlum?

  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,722
    It is early days but I think I can hear CArolum, we are using the version I originally set. On feasts and in Advent/Lent we will sing the other versions I have set.
    Thanked by 1Chrism
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  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,722
    We have found this and will sing this next Sunday (with text modified to suit the modern wording of this prayer).
    More here from a blog post on the origins of the Adeste Fideles
  • PLTT
    Posts: 149
    Does anyone have an English translation or paraphrase of the "Domine salvum fac" that keeps the number of syllables (aside from name) and (as much as possible) stresses of the Latin text?