50K isn't "poverty wage" in every part of this country.

Perhaps someone should draw the attention of Francis to the plight of church musicians... Depriving a man of a just wage is a sin. Although you never know with Francis if poor means all those that are poor or only a sub section of the poor.

I feel your pain. It’s true; I’ve often made the observation that there is a disparity between what the church asks of musicians (live according to the tenants of the faith, in particular, a natural marriage) and then not pay a wage that would permit your spouse to stay home and care for the kids (also traditional). Of course, I suppose we need to adjust our expectations insofar as lifestyles are concerned, but 50k doesn’t go all that far when you have groceries, a mortgage, car payments and insurance, and other bills (to say nothing of the typically poor diocesan healthcare). I was very pleased when a priest recently reached out to me about a job he was offering; he had secured a commitment from a wealthy family to subsidize a supplement to the musician’s salary to push it up to 70k for a minimum of 5 years. He really wanted to secure a good musician and see the program grow, and he was thinking outside the box to make it happen. I wasn’t at liberty to take the job, but it did give me hope. But that posting was a bit of a unicorn… so I’m not holding my breath that a similar offer will float by anytime soon.

In my previous secular career, I fought to have the salaries of our current employees not only raised, but raised to exceed the compensation of the new incoming employees, because I thought it was so awful and immoral that new employees were being given better treatment from the start than people who had given 10+ years to the company. The fact that the upper management even considered paying strangers more than faithful employees just blew my mind. Mercifully, at least in that case, the employee's salaries were raised, and one woman, in particular, received a well-deserved windfall. They would have collapsed without her and she'd been there longer than anyone.

I discourage any young people who ask me about it from aspiring to work for the church as professional lay parish ministers, whether in music or catechesis. I explain they will barely be able to support themselves on what they will be paid, and they will not be able to support a family. I encourage them to get trained in a skill that will enable them to land a lucrative secular career, and then they can volunteer for the church in their free time.

You think it's bad now? The church in the U.S. is going to experience a demographic collapse in 10-15 years, and parishes will close and merge.

A big reason so many parishes have terrible parish Mass music and catechetical programs is because they get what they pay for. The church pays its lawyers and finance people well. Shows what it values. Parish lay professional staff are considered unimportant, as shown by what they are paid, and if pastors can get away with having volunteers, many are happy with that, regardless of quality.

Look at what Apple, Microsoft, Tesla, Google, Meta (Facebook) and other companies have accomplished and how they have grown in less than forty years. They did that by hiring highly talented personnel and compensating them well. When the church scrapes the bottom of the barrel to get parish staff because the pay is so poor, it's no wonder parishes languish.

The church in the U.S. is going to experience a demographic collapse in 10-15 years

I admire your optimism: Maybe it was 10-15 in 2019, but CoVID accelerated everything, I give it 5-7 years.

An employer willing to give you the flexible hours you need to set your schedule based on tasks, rehearsals, liturgies, prep, and practice, and then to take on private students, side gigs, sub gigs, etc., is compensating you (in flexibility and opportunity) to the tune of $10-15k above and beyond the $40-50k base salary.

Thanks, this is all great info. I think, perhaps, the most realistic thing is having a pastor who understands that I need to be flexible to earn extra income as a freelance musician. My question is, what are strategies for relating to a pastor in this regard? What is your experience in terms of creating this type of relationship? What are some times where there was conflict with this approach, and how did you deal with it?

I get a sense that there are some doomers and some optimists here, but I think that NihilNominis' take seems to be the most reasonable.

I'm sorry, everyone. I've given the wrong impression. I'm not accusing the OP of whining, or anything of the sort. Rather, it is important to evaluate the situation with adequate context.

Here's my advice: investigate the devotion to the Infant of Prague. When I was teaching in a brick-and-mortar Catholic school, my headmaster had the students pray every month to the Infant of Prague, and when the school got in an especially tight and frustrating spot (owning land but not having funds to build the new campus, while populating a decaying downtown building, he asked us to pray, school-wide, a novena for the $350,000 we needed to advance the project. On the 8th day, I managed to catch sight of the headmaster, who had the general demeanor of a giddy school boy, which was, to put it mildly, not his usual demeanor. He didn't explain, that I recall, but on the 9th day of the novena, he reported to the students and faculty alike that a single donor had come through with $500,000. The school built the new campus.

Mark,

Look at what Apple, Microsoft, Tesla, Google, Meta (Facebook) and other companies have accomplished and how they have grown in less than forty years. They did that by hiring highly talented personnel and compensating them well. When the church scrapes the bottom of the barrel to get parish staff because the pay is so poor, it's no wonder parishes languish.

ok, but look at what those companies produce!

Many church musicians would think they had died and gone to heaven if they could get $50 K a year. Most are lucky to get 20. I was fortunate enough to have a job with a government agency, lived frugally, and had other incomes. I really didn't care so much about the money. Perhaps I should have since there always seemed to be money for whatever Father wanted to squander it on this month. And squander it he did leaving the parish $2million in debt when the bishop forced him to retire. If you can do it as a side job or a labor of love, fine. If you are trying to make a living, you probably can't make it on a church musician's salary, especially if you have children. I am talking only about the Catholic Church. Some Protestant denominations actually do pay well.

If you can do it as a side job or a labor of love, fine. If you are trying to make a living, you probably can't make it on a church musician's salary, especially if you have children. I am talking only about the Catholic Church.

If you are correct on this, it is incredibly sad. Especially since I find the Church to be more welcoming to children and family than any other group or institution or the culture at large.

Tin_J, you and I may be about the same age (~30). I presently have one child, an MM, and thankfully only a little bit of student debt left thanks to really generous scholarship aid in undergrad.

I’ve been able to do it 3 ways in 3 FT jobs since 2017:

1) DoM/Organist for clustered parish in low cost of living area, $43k base salary, an additional 20-30k yearly to be had playing for funerals, weddings, novenas, etc. This involved something like 60 hours a week between running 3 choirs, teaching in the Catholic high school, and playing back-to-back funerals and weddings and Masses. My wife also worked about half the time we were here, before our kid was born, so we paid down debt and saved like mad. This came to an end with Covid and led to a cross-country move to

2) Assistant organist at one of the largest Episcopal churches; extremely high cost of living area, $45k salary with minimal possibility for additional income with few weddings/funerals. This only worked because we saved enough at #1 and from COVID stimulus to be able to buy a lousy little place and pay an $1,200/mo mortgage thanks to historically low interest rates, instead of twice that to rent a 2br apartment. Our kid was too young for daycare, so we didn’t have that expense. I think we ate takeout or in a restaurant less than 10 times in 2 years. Really, we lived like misers. Nevertheless as the inflation started my wife eventually went back to work PT at Starbucks to get their cheap health insurance, instead of paying a ridiculous amount for the church plan or on Obamacare. So I was working 40h, she was working 20h, and when one was working the other was being a solo parent. We didn’t sleep very much, but it was the next step on the ladder to

3) (RC) Cathedral organist job in a major city, approx 75k/yr. A real unicorn job with no issues and I’m going to stay until I decease. I cannot really claim credit for getting it; whatever reason, my path has been what it has been, and God has taken me in directions I did not think I would go, but I have not starved and somehow am still able to do this, which I take as a sign that I’m in the right field, and so I’d better do my very best and not get discouraged.

It’s not my place to tell anyone what career they should pursue or to second-guess another family’s decisions, but I am aware that I would not be able to do this without

-an heroic and even selfless wife who believes in what I do, can manage money extremely well, was happy to work lousier jobs than mine, doesn’t mind being with our kid for the time being, and doesn’t gamble…

-good enough financial aid in undergrad that I could become a good organist, do a half-time church job, and practice for hours on end, instead of working nights at McDonalds

-a healthy family that needs only routine medical care

-being able to get by with one (10-year-old) car

-extraordinary financial good luck in relation to world events and when we bought and sold our house

-an extended family that does not need my support

-those years in job 1 to build equity

-good professional connections who came through when I needed them

-one child

If any of these things were different I probably would have had to do something else. Colleagues who have quit FT work do report being very happy playing once a weekend and enjoying the rest of their life. For me I don’t think I’d be so happy; maybe you would, though.

You are in my prayers as you discern.

PS While it is great that we now have lay musicians, catechists, parochial school teachers, administrators….it is curious that after all these years, the salary a typical church offers is still only approximately enough to support one celibate monk who already has housing, healthcare, and a retirement plan, and doesn’t mind eating gruel and never traveling.

tin_j here are some benefits that need to be a part of church jobs to make them financially feasible:

- approval to teach private lessons on church campus
- ability to purchase resources. An example: Making worship aids is time consuming. Pastors like to spend money. Get him to buy you books
- relaxed hours. If salaried, try to spend no more time at work than strictly required. Side gigs take time from family, so be careful going the extra mile at work and eating up more time
- parochial school tuition discount. I am getting a huge raise this year.

Keep this two things in mind:
1. a musical career is composed of many gigs; a “full time” church job is only part of a musical career. Develop additional income streams.
2. Streamline your job. We don’t get paid for the extra time we put in. Do a good job, but run your program as if you were about to hand it off to your successor. Making the job so complicated that only you can do it means you are probably putting in too much time.

After a few years of full time work it was clear that we would not be able to make it on my salary. I went back to school part time and after finishing that degree, transitioned into a full time job as a speech therapist and went down to part time at the church. Even now, with double what I made before, we are stretched financially at times, if we want to also put money away for retirement, save for college, afford to go to the doctor on my crappy insurance, etc. there are many paths. Take a computer programming course for a few months for example and make way more. I wish you the best with what you decide. I have 4 kids btw

I think what's forgotten here is that what we do is a *specialized trade*. I didn't get a MM in organ performance to just twiddle my thumbs. I can do something that very few people in my area can do at my level. I expect it's the same for many of you. Plumbers make way more than I make, and they didn't have to study intensely and practice "plumbing" until 2am every night for years to make that salary. But such is the way of art. Always has been, always will be. I hope to one day find a unicorn job (would be even better if it was TLM) but I'm not holding my breath. I was offered one such job but the timing wasn't right. Hopefully another will come along eventually. I'm happy where I am for the time being, but considering how the demographics are shifting, I'll need to be fully bilingual in the relatively near future or I'll struggle to keep my job. sigh.

FYI, A licensed plumber spends about 2 years as an apprentice and 2-6 years as a journeyman and has to pass 2 licensing exams (1 for journeyman, 1 for master). Plumbers have to buy their own tools, have to pay an annual license fee, have general liability insurance, provide their own medical insurance, both halves of their social security taxes, a work vehicle (either a pickup truck or a panel van) which they will have to replace every couple of years, etc. They are highly skilled workers in a job that requires manual dexterity, physical strength, and a knowledge of the plumbing code (which runs about 500 pages and is updated every 3 years). Fixing toilets and unstopping sinks is only a small part of what they do.

I didn’t mean to demean plumbers in any way. I’m just drawing the comparison that what we do is also a skilled trade. And much of what you observe would only apply to independent contractors. The men who work for rotorooter aren’t replacing their own trucks. But point taken.

Also, the idea that a single church job would be the sum total of a musician’s earnings is not a historical idea.

I agree, and I often wish I knew more about the music business of the 17-18th centuries, seems like there is some sort of analog with our own time there.

Latin seems to be falling on hard times in some places. Given the current administration in Rome, we may be hearing less and less of it if trends continue. Spanish, or more appropriately, Latin American Spanish, seems everywhere. So did we go from bad Latin, to bad English, to bad Spanish? Who knows. Salary wise, I think a big problem is that the church in the U.S. expects everything for nearly nothing. From Aunt Bessie who played for the glory of God and no money, and nuns who worked for nothing, the expectation is that the church should get by on the cheap when it comes to musicians. Not playing that game any more and glad to be retired.

There are places that pay a good wage. I asked at my current job for a salary that I could manage when I interviewed and it was given. I just received an 8% raise this year after 7 years ( my second raise). There are priests who will spend the money and that is becoming more and more the case.

One just has to look, be willing to move and find that priest. Do not settle for a pittance.

At a cathedral to boot…. Even if lowly country parishes cannot afford it, even the humblest cathedral could (and absolutely should as the mother and principal church of the diocese…)

Historically, patronage was often a factor. Some wealthy nobles funded musicians or the state funded church operations through taxes or outright grants. That model is pretty much gone. Certainly, there were monastics and religious sisters who provided music, again depending on the place. As far as, say the U.S. church, there is no uniform model and pay varies from parish to parish.

My parish does appreciate the music ministers, but it's a "poor parish" that had just started a Catholic school for working class folks and needs a lot of building repair.

At my age and circumstances, I'm happy to consider my services as a donation to my church. However, at earlier stages in my life I would have liked to have been paid staff.

The running practical assumption among US Catholic pastors seems to have been that the Platonic form of music director/organist was a religious sister whose order might be paid a modest stipend.

Throughout most of history, it seems that the average standard of living for [church] musicians was/is abject poverty: things might have just seemed better when housing was part of "payment", cf. Bach, the Mozarts in Salzburg, Haydn, Salieri, et al.; or when patrons or devoted friends helped out: cf. Beethoven, Schubert, et al. There were some who were lucky enough to be able to make a considerable fortune performing and/or composing, like Handel or Liszt, but they seem to be the exception. Unfortunately, income tax has put an end to eccentric millionaire widows anonymously patronizing musicians.