Keeping it short
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Elmar,

    Look at the dioceses which don't have a vocations crisis measured in single-digit ordinations in a decade.

    Gamba,

    Matthew's right, so I'll take his position: not in a hurry, not sluggish, just methodical and reverent.
    Thanked by 2Elmar LauraKaz
  • Elmar
    Posts: 500
    Look at the dioceses which don't have a vocations crisis measured in single-digit ordinations in a decade
    Please point me to one - preferably on this side of the big pond but not too far East - I am genuinely interested to learn what is going on there.
    Even better: point our bishop to one, I am afraid he won't listen to me when I try to forward your information.

    What I do is praying for vocations - not the least thing certainly, and this is something that at our priest does foster very well - and I hope that the youngest of our adult acolytes will be called as a worker in the vineyard of the Lord. ...please not as 'ober-'priest of a parish cluster...
    Our second acolyte has found after years of discernment that he has not a calling to priesthood, and the third one is father of a family.

    Which is of course not mutually exclusive: recently I read a story about the 'late vocation' of a (finally not) permanent deacon, who lost his wife early and then 'heard the call'.
    There was a nice photo of this 'young priest' in his early 60s surrounded by his children and grandchildren!

    Back to topic:
    I guess that as a father and grandfather he has a very good intuition on
    - the ineffectivenes of making a hurry for saving time,
    - how long people can listen really, even when they are, different from your own offspring, polite enough not to interrupt you in your lengthy sermons.
    Our own pastor simply hasn't understood that after 15 years of practice, we have acquired the skill to sleep head straight and eyes open.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Is Poland too far east?

    If you have access to it, you could read Michael Rose's Goodbye, Good Men, but let me simplify his thesis: dioceses whose sheep know that the shepherd is loyal to Christ and His Church, who lives out the Gospel in accord with the moral law, not the civil law, and who nurtures and supports both his priests and his seminarians.... don't have a dirth of vocations.
    Thanked by 4ServiamScores Elmar tomjaw LauraKaz
  • Elmar
    Posts: 500
    Is Poland too far east?
    Definitively yes. I am talking about a minority situation of Christians in countries that view(ed) themselves as Christian.

    In our country, in a recent poll more than 50% of the respondents said they do not believe in God at all.
    There is virtually nowhere a social environment where you can be 'simply catholic', except very small groups that come together for that purpuse, like the diocesan youth camp that my daughter joined for the third time; and who held zoom meetings during lockdowns - like 20 teenagers + 3 catechists from the entire diocese. Every youth activity is flocked by the same youngsters as if there were no more than 100 young catholics in a population of 1.5 million (250,000 of whom are formally members of the Catholic Church, Sunday Mass attendence around 12,000 before covid).

    This is not really a situation where you can socialise mainly among 'strong' catholics on a daily basis - although some of these groups think that is the thing to do; and it is among these that we typically have of our handful of priestly vocations...

    Btw our bishop does exactly this - except maybe for the part that I put in brackets which at least he doesn't stress in what he says and does:
    dioceses whose sheep know that the shepherd is loyal to Christ and His Church, who lives out the Gospel in accord with the moral law, [not the civil law,] and who nurtures and supports both his priests and his seminarians
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    You're in Denmark or Holland or Germany, aren't you? If you're in Germany, how can Poland be too far east?

    Poland has a population which, if I understand it, has clung to the Catholic faith more effectively than other parts of Europe. Here, in the United* States of America, there are pockets of fidelity, but there are also swaths of indifference. Nebraska (in the "heartland") doesn't have a large population of people in general or Catholics, but has (had?) a good bishop or two for decades. Los Angeles has an enormous population in a populous state, and nominal Catholics by the bushelful. Nevertheless, at the time Rose wrote his book, Lincoln, Nebraska was ordaining at a rate comparable to Los Angeles, which should have been ordaining significantly more.

    Those groups you identify, "have of our handful of priestly vocations" for a reason.
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,372
    Sadly, vocations are declining rapidly in Poland - only one third as many now as fifteen years ago.
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • Elmar
    Posts: 500
    You're in Denmark or Holland or Germany, aren't you?
    Born in Germany, living in Holland.
    ...how can Poland be too far east? Poland has a population which, if I understand it, has clung to the Catholic faith more effectively than other parts of Europe.
    Exactly in this way: fostering vocations in a country where atheists start to outnumber all religious people added is a completely different thing. When I was a kid, we were a relevant catholic minority among a lutheran majority; we had the free choice to socialise with everyone or with catholics only. Now I have to travel to meet a single other catholic 'of my brand'.
    Sadly, vocations are declining rapidly in Poland - only one third as many now as fifteen years ago.
    So even a population that "clung to the Catholic faith" is apparently not what needs to be copied 1:1...
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Elmar,

    So, 'too far east' isn't do do with geography.
    Germany and Holland have a large number of atheists, to be sure.
    America's vocation crisis is (so far) behind Europe's, but that's more a question of advanced decay in Europe, not health and well-being in America.
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,025
    I'm programming Veni, Creator Spiritus as the entrance hymn at my Novus Ordo parish on Pentecost. There have been a small number of complaints about Latin, but I'm pressing ahead, especially since the pastor is retiring and his replacement is a reform of the reform type.

    In the interest of keeping it short, we will only sing the first three verses of the hymn, which is just enough time for the procession and for the priest to reach his chair.

    I'd love for the choir to lead the people in singing the whole hymn, but the parish isn't ready for that yet. I want to avoid giving people ammunition, such as, "We had to wait while the Latin went on and on and on."

    Nope, not going to give them that ammunition.

    So I'm keeping it short for tactical reasons.

    Maybe at the new pastor's installation Mass we can sing the entire hymn.
    Thanked by 3tomjaw CHGiffen LauraKaz
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Someone is always willing to find common ground with the orthodox in mining a compromise... (Check out Jesus’ forty days in the desert.)
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    I love the Veni Creator Spiritus. It calls to mind beautiful images of the brave martyrs of Compiègne.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen tomjaw
  • Elmar
    Posts: 500
    So, 'too far east' isn't do do with geography.
    Exactly, this was a way of saying: "Don't point me to Poland, that won't be helpful; point me to some diocese in a Western country that manages to resists the decline, if there is any."

    Back to topic, the ROTH attempts of our pastor don't seem to curb the decline of our parish (not even slowing it compared to other parishes) and his lenghty homilies don't seem to help either...
    Look at the dioceses which don't have a vocations crisis measured in single-digit ordinations in a decade.
    I'd like to if I saw any.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Diocese: Lincoln, Nebraska.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw Elmar
  • LauraKaz
    Posts: 73
    Another diocese: Wichita, Kansas.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw Elmar
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,722
    Fort Wayne / South Bend is ordaining multiple priests per year and currently has 30 in formation. (Praised be Jesus!)
    Thanked by 2tomjaw Elmar
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Toulon, France. Or, rather, he was ordaining them, but some people who don't like success decided to try to put a stop to it.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    But the Church in Poland changed after Wyszyński and Wojtyła: They are modernizing, and following the route of western Europe: wreckovating churches, getting rid of devotions, Bugnini-izing the devotions that remain. In short, what the rest of the Church did in the 1970s Poland is doing now, and reaping the same rotten fruits.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,152
    The Diocese of Tyler, one of the smallest dioceses in the State of Texas, has more than 10 seminarians and several become priests each year.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
Add a Comment