Appropriate type of bells for the Gloria
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 402
    Educate me on what types of bells are appropriate for the Gloria at Easter Vigil? Cowbells seem a little too SNL. Sleigh bells seem too Christmassy. Handbells that aren’t out of tune are expensive. Electronic cellphone bells are not acceptable according to various church documents.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Sponsa,

    It depends what you mean by "bells... appropriate for the Gloria at Easter Vigil".

    If you plan to have bells rung all throughout the Gloria, it is proper (and even customary where the custom hasn't been snuffed out, or prevented from taking root) to ring the bells, all of them, in the tower of the Church. Similarly appropriate are the Sanctus bells, in whatever form these exist, so long as they're real bells. Avoid the cell phone bells, as you have already concluded these are inappropriate. If you were in a farming community, cow bells would not be unreasonable. If you're in a major metropolitan area, probably not so much. If you have real sleigh bells, would you propose to detach them from the sleighs, or move the sleighs into the narthex?

    On the other hand, I (personally) think Zimbelstern -- or carillon organ stops don't make the grade.

  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,889
    Sanctus bells, certainly, but I disagree with Chris: this is a perfect opportunity to trot out the zimbelstern.
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen CharlesW cesarfranck
  • Caleferink
    Posts: 434
    Every real bell you have - Sanctus bells, tower bells, handbells, bells at the entry of the church if you have them, organ zimbelstern/chimes...all of them
    Thanked by 1francis
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 402
    Unfortunately Our church doesn’t have a bell tower. We only have electronic bells. I’ve been meaning to suggest starting a capital campaign for a real bell tower.
  • PhilipPowell
    Posts: 116
    Absolutely anything you can get your hands on that makes a joyful noise (in the realm of bells of course).
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    Tubular bells would be cool. And what about really nice wind chimes?
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen cesarfranck
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    I suspect one should refrain from using bells from mobile phones. (Humor courtesy of "Bells Are Ringing"): If you use them, you should develop a ... simple little system.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbCA_qFJWro

    Mid-century musical middlebrow that would be lost on audiences today. (Sigh.) We *won't* be rich.
    Thanked by 1MarkS
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,311
    So… to tack on to Chris's point: the church bells can be rung for the entirety of the singing. However, the traditional form gets this right. Just like on Holy Thursday, bell-ringing (with the Sanctus bells, whether chimes like we mostly know or the single bell prescribed by the rubrics) should cease when the priest finishes reading the text or by the time that he returns to the sedilia. In the usus recentior, I would suggest ceasing the bells after a minute or so, at which point the organist can stop playing a fanfare that leads into the rest of the (probably accompanied) chant… I find singing straight through, without any kind of alternation between schola-people or men-women, already tiresome. It's impossible with the bells ringing inside the church.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    bells... must use for a spare amount of time... or we will all go mad. (always keep them wanting more)
    Thanked by 1Jani
  • Bri
    Posts: 116
    Are there any church documents that prescribe the use of bells during the Gloria on Holy Thursday?

    I was surprised that our cathedral decided not to use bells during the Gloria yesterday (they had used them in past years).
  • davido
    Posts: 942
    As with most Novus Ordo things, they bells are not prescribed, merely "may be rung"
    Thanked by 1Bri
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 402
    I noticed at the English Mass they still use consecration bells (as well as the organ and instruments such as strings and timpani) on Holy Thursday, but then went will the clacker for the procession? Makes no sense to me when you understand why that’s supposed to be the end of it all until the Gloria of Easter Vigil.

    At the Traditional Latin Mass, after the bells of the Gloria are rung, that’s it until the Gloria of Easter vigil. No organ, no bells, we even have heated discussions if the pitch pipe may be used to give pitches, or if that’s considered an instrument (the pitch pipe thing always seemed a bit extreme to me).
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,933
    we even have heated discussions if the pitch pipe may be used to give pitches, or if that’s considered an instrument (the pitch pipe thing always seemed a bit extreme to me).


    Holy Week always brings out the best in people.
    Thanked by 4tomjaw Liam ServiamScores LauraKaz
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    I'm fine with an actual pitch pipe. I endured a musician director who had an iPhone pitch pipe app of some sort. It sounded like a loud and raucous "BRAAACK" and was truly hideous. The real pitch pipe at least has tonality.
    Thanked by 2MatthewRoth tomjaw
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Would a tuning fork be different from a pitch pipe?
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,311
    no, imho.

    My pitch pipe in C is junk from China. I simply could not get the pitches this morning, so Tenebrae was wonky at times. The Kratt one is in F, which I really only need to fix chants in mode VII when practicing for Vespers, and is much more reliable. I also know people who prefer their apps… Its clunk is also very obviously fake.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw CharlesW
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,889
    I'm fine with an actual pitch pipe.
    Organs are, of course, nothing but a big box of pitch pipes.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW PaxMelodious
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    ...fork...
    - I would recommend one of these above all else, except for the next to silence of a divine lieblich gedeckt.

    ...of course...
    - I assume that your tongue was in your cheek when you wrote this.
    If it were Bach might chuckle with us...
    if not he might blow up, and I wouldn't want to be nearby the fireworks.

    As for bells, anything that rings and has a clapper is a bell and would therefore be appropriate.
    Zimbelsterns are bells, so they qualify.
    It's rather a joyful experience to have every choir member to bring a bell to ring.
    And don't forget the bells in your belfry or campanile (providing they are actually bells and not Schulmeric bell simulacra!).
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 402
    My pitch pipe in C is junk from China.


    Yeah, they don’t make things like they used to. My mom has an old pitch pipe from the 70s, made in the USA. Still works fine. Mine, same brand, terrible. Found a really old pitch pipe under the carpet in our choir room recently (radiator leaked while the room was being used during the pandemic.). It must have been therefor almost 20 years, but even it still works.

    We had a most abhorrent experience during our Good Friday liturgy. Someone forgot to set the electronic bells to manual and they kept going off.
    Thanked by 1MatthewRoth
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,889
    Yes, my tongue was in my cheek.

    As for no organ, it simply isn’t practical at many places. If you don’t have a competent choir to lead, full a cappella singing is a recipe for a disaster. My solution was to keep the big organ mute and use a small continuo rig in the loft and play on a soft gedeckt. This kept the choir on but was very unobtrusive and soft. The effect was relatively subtle and still felt very sparse/exposed down in the nave. I also didn’t use it for everything, and for those things that I did (like starting o sacred head) I desisted half way through and we ended a cappella once the ball was rolling. This all seemed a perfectly reasonable compromise.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 402
    Sometimes it’s the priest who decides no organ regardless of your choir’s skill level.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,311
    well, trads don't have any flexibility… for better or worse.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    I have known trads who created loopholes in the "requirements" and used the organ anyway. The traditional rules can be bent, broken, and ignored just as they are in the NO.
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,311
    ^whatever. Nobody said that they can't be, but they are intended to be clear so as to be easy to follow, and the framing of the rubrics is clear: willfully breaking them is a sin. It might be excusable, and in fact, I'm not particularly scrupulous, particularly when it actually deprives the people, but using the organ is to miss the point entirely at best.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Matthew, the enforcement mechanisms no longer exist. Go tell the local bishop someone used the organ on Good Friday. He will probably think this too trivial to even merit a response.
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,889
    Considering the other—substantially more egregious—abuses that seem to run rampant these days, this hardly seems the hill to die on (no pun intended).
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,311
    Charles, this is your bug bear. I don't know why you like to bring it up, without prompting, but you do.

    The enforcement mechanism is simple: the pastor will get flack, and rightfully so, and he has two choices: make right on the spot, or let it fester. I know which one that I'd choose.

    If you're in trad land, it's absolutely a hill to die on. The organ goes off at the Gloria of Holy Thursday. There are rubrics for smaller churches for a reason, and it's why you can't wing Holy Week. So again, what's the point of using the organ if you're not supposed to do so, knowing full well that it is entirely and utterly forbidden to do so? What is the point of then singing the Gloria of the vigil with organ if you've touched it the last two days? This is actually one of my big complaints about the Triduum in the NO: it completely destroys that privation in favor of completely unclear rubrics (though I was reminded that the rubric for the Crux Fidelis is clear, except that you can legitimately choose to do something else in the meantime, making said rubric totally irrelevant).
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    I am old enough to remember the earlier restrictions on, and penalties for, not following the rules. They are all gone now - both rules and penalties. I worked in NO land so I never cared what the Trads thought since I didn't deal with them directly.

    Where does the blame lie? Vatican II? It gets blamed for everything. I suppose one could actually put some blame on Pius XII for bungling up Holy Week during his tenure. I have referred to the liturgical world as the wild, wild west since no one is effectively in charge. Worse than that, no one who holds any position of authority seems to want to be in charge.

    Considering the other—substantially more egregious—abuses that seem to run rampant these days, this hardly seems the hill to die on (no pun intended).


    Truth.
    Thanked by 2ServiamScores Schönbergian
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