Ah, Gavin, still working outside the Church I see...the amount of fear and trepidation a statement like that would incur in a typical parish priest would result in a possible severance of employment posthaste...

For those of us working for free or, better yet, for some sort of remuneration in the Church, what would you list as hymns that people WILL sing...there is a place for you to suggest hymns that should become a repertoire.

And every parish should have some vernacular hymns for novenas and prayer services...

O, Francis! Thanks.

M. Jackson...can I assume that these are ones that they should know....rather than ones Catholics now sing with confidence?

Noel, I intended my suggestion as the basis of a "core repertoire" ideal, not to describe a current situation. I firmly believe that every Catholic congregation should be able to sing with gusto any selection from the PBC. It isn't unrealistic; people know pop songs by heart, why not the great and authentic hymns of the Faith?

I would wager that we can't describe a current "core repertoire" for all Catholic churches in America. I was brought up without "Holy God We Praise Thy Name". And I know a fantastic priest who was shocked to run into a Catholic congregation which didn't know "Wachet Auf" or "Lead Kindly Light" (anyone know the tune for that last one??)

Noel -
You DID ask for a 'should know' list of Hymnody.
I should think (one would hope!) that there are a number of confident 'do knows' as well as 'should knows'
in both of the above lists.

By all means, I don't recommend any Catholic congregation stop at the PBC. Build from there, and I certainly have plenty of suggestions. For America, I'd recommend that Catholics know, in addition to the material of the PBC, the majority of the Ecumenical Hymn List. But that can NOT take priority over the repertory represented in the PBC.

Gavin's 'crazy idea' is a superb idea! One should be able to assume that it forms a part of every Catholic child's formation in music classes at Catholic schools. It seems, though, that nothing like this takes place in most parishes. By way of extension, a similar proviso should attend every priest's formation for ordination - he should be able to sing the mass (all of it, from In nomine patri... to ite missa est) in English & Latin, before he is ordained. Isidore of Seville went so far as to assert that a man who could not sing should not be ordained.

They learn folk music... at least at the two seminaries I was familiar with. Now, that was a few years back, so hopefully things have progressed toward the better.

Unbelievable, and No singing? Sorry to go on this. Because I have two boys, and I pray... If someday they decide to go to a seminary, I hope they get to go to a seminary with good music classes. They are singing pretty well in the children's schola. (one of them already comes to both adult and children's schola practices, his own decision.) I also have many boys in my schola, and they are very serious about singing chants.

Well, sadly that is more than at St Mary's in Baltimore which doesn't seem to have ANY courses in music!! I could be mistaken, but I don't see anything in the curriculum.

I don't understand, all the Church documents, including "Sing to the Lord," (although this is only a recommandation as I understand) emphaize priests' singing (the first degree of singing parts), why the seminaries don't help them? Why everyone is doing his own thing, instead of following the Church's instruction? Is this because of their pride or ignorance, Maybe the combination of both. Really, how patient our God is. Whoever in charge of the curriculm, I don't know it's done by individual school, or by the diocese, do they read the documents? In our parish, our associate priest is going to be tranffered, and we will have only one priest from next month. (1800 families) I don't even know we will have the 'luxury of having two daily Masses' anymore. My friend says her parish will not have a priest from next month. They are overloaded, and they don't have time to learn music. This got to be done beforehand. Now we begin "Year of Priests.' They really need our prayers.

Weekly High Mass with chant and polyphony and chanting the LOTH, seems to me, should be normal fare for any seminarian.

"Because I have two boys, and I pray... If someday they decide to go to a seminary, I hope they get to go to a seminary with good music classes."

Send them to Fr Phillips on Carpenter St in Chicago.:o)

Seriously, I will try to rmember to pray for your boys' vocations (whatever they may be!) , during this Year of the Priest.

(Save the Liturgy, Save the World)

You are right, Donna. Many, but not all, of the hymns on my list happen to be in the Episcopal hymnal or The English Hymnal. However, most of them are also in Gracewing's The Catholic Hymn Book as well as a number of American Catholic hymnals. And, I do hope that some above are not suggesting that what average persons in the pews currently can sing with vigour is the measure of what should be the repertory of liturgically advanced and musically aware Catholics - and IS already the repertory of many. At any rate, all the hymns on my list (and on Francis' as well) are Catholic: each affirms unequivocally some aspect of Catholic faith and doctrine, and contains no heresy. (Also, 'should be' as well as 'are' hymns were requested specifically.)

At this point I am studying all of the reponses. While I wanted to get a list of what Catholics ARE singing, I'm like everybody else and have a list of what people SHOULD be singing. The line between Anglican and Catholic Hymnody is very thin, when it exists at all.

But I could use more ARE singing songs...what clicks with your parish? What is the basic core that people WILL sing.

When I became Music Director, my first act was to throw in the Dempsey Dumpster every copy of G&P I could lay my hands on! LOL And also decreed we would be singing the Psalm of the Day- no more 'seasonal psalms'
About once a year in the summer, I schedule something like 'Sing a new song'. but that's it. Our congregations are pretty traditional esp the10:30, so they are happy to sing good tradtional hymn tunes and Latin ordinary. We need new hymnals. At Colloquium I will explore choices if they are available. The Catholic Hymnal sounds good. We are using Ritualsong currently.
Frogman, I will sit down and make a list of what we are singing now and that cong. likes to sing. I am guided not so much by what mass it is, but by Liturgical necessities. If it's Pentecost Sunday there are just so many good hymns in RS. And there might be a revolt if we didn't sing 'Come Holy Ghost' to Lambilotte. On the other hand we always do my fav Down Ampney. We are talking hymns here?
We have a "Band' at the 900am for which I am in no way resp, so if anyone doesn't want trad music, that's where they go. I won't even mention what gets sung at the Spanish Mass.:(

Looking for hymns they sing rather then songs we have gotten them to sing.

I think the average non-musician will sing any awful or excellent set of words, unthinkingly, if it is to a tune he knows and likes.
IM(limited)E, the PIPs would sing the contents of the phone book if it's set to HYFRYDOL, a Chinese restaurant menu to ODE TO JOY, the disclaimers on a prescription drug box to NETTLETON, & an eye chart to SALZBURG.

(Save the Liturgy, Save the World)

Ecumenism? Ecumenism? Ecumenism? I am STILL learning to be an excellent Catholic FIRST, THEN in the future I can possibly THINK about Ecumenism. However, my definition of Ecumenism is "you-come-in" to the Catholic Church.

Frogman,

George Weigel wrote in his book, "Courage to be Catholic" something about seminarians being required to deconstruct Catholic theology before they even knew what it was. It's a pretty good book. How it applies directly to music I don't know, but it does speak some as to the state of affairs in Catholic theology long before the sex abuse crisis came to light in the media. I will not dwell on this in this post.

Well, for some encouraging news, the Assumption Seminary (Archdiocese of San Antonio) Schola Cantorum came to OLOA last December and sang some chant hymns. And the archbishop, I understand, is pretty big on chant and improving the quality of the liturgy. Unfortunately, a travel through the archdiocesan parish churches does not seem to show this, at least for the moment, since most of the pastors were appointed before he arrived.

Now, back to the topic: I suggest the Adoremus Hymnal (Ignatius Press) as having quality hymns, so whatever is in there, I guess you can say is a starters for quality hymnody. (It even includes some chant ordinaries in Latin and English.) Much of it M. Jackson Osborn and Francis have already mentioned.

I want to add to M. Jackson Osborn's and Francis' list:

To Jesus Christ our Sovereign King
Praise to the Lord the Almighty
For all the saints who from their labors rest
Hail the day which sees Him rise (not necessarily a core hymn since it is sung only once a year, but a quality one)
Rejoice, ye pure in heart (text by Plumptre, music "Carlisle" by Lockhard)---once again, not necessarily a core hymn
The Day of Resurrection Earth tell it out Abroad (will write down the music setting later since it is not in mind right now.), the passover of gladness the passover of God

And here is one by our pastor which could be used at Easter:

Text: Father Christopher Phillips, 1990
Music: "Grafton" French Melody, 1881

God our Father, Lord of glory,
Thanks and praise we give to Thee;
In thy mercy to our fathers,
Thou didst bring them through the sea.
So by water hast Thou saved us,
Now from Adam's sin set free.

Jesus Christ, our Risen Savior,
Of Thy sacrifice we sing;
As the lamb in ancient myst'ry
To Thy people life didst bring,
So in Eucharistic glory,
Thou, God's Lamb, art made our King.

Holy Spirit, Breath from heaven,
We Thy precious gifts embrace;
At creation all things living
Thou didst sanctify with grace.
So may we, creation's glory,
Be for Thee a dwelling place.

Loving mercy of the Father,
Sacrifice of Christ the Son,
Quick'ning power of the Sprit:
In us let Thy work be done!
May we rise to life eternal,
That our Paschal joy be won.

The "Grafton" melody can be used for one other hymn, but I can't seem to think what it is right now. More on it later.



(More later once they come to mind.....)

Faith of Our Fathers - http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/f/a/faithoof.htm

Donnaswan,

Thanks! There are at least one or two other hymns that go well with Ellacombe.

Add one more to the Easter list: Thine be the Glory

Probably what you have is a list of what crosses the mind of a visitor, given a weak general direction.

The results you have received might be parallel to the
results a musician receives when asking a bereaved family
"what music do you want for the funeral?"

Perhaps you could re-organize ("normalize" is the database term) the info, e.g.,
column one for text first lines alphabetically listed,
column two for intended usage of the text,
column three for a verbose reasoning/justification.

Aside from four hymns (three for Benediction, one for Stations of the Cross),
I did not have any that first came to mind.
As I read through the spreadsheet, a few other categories came to mind
(Advent, Christmas, Lent, Palm Sunday, Easter, Marian, All Saints).

Maybe we need a few rows of "column one is blank, column two is a category"
to inspire other appropriate responses?

To me, the most interesting data you might collect would be the column three contents,
what people have to say about why they want the item in the list (a justification for inclusion).

The hymn
Lauda Sion Salvatorem
is not in the the Parish Book of Chant nor in The Adoremus Hymnal. It is, however, in the Gregorian Missal.

frogman, how close are CMAA forum member suggestions to arriving at the goals?

2001-may-7 Liturgiam authenticam
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20010507_liturgiam-authenticam_en.html
# 108 "...Within five years from the publication of this Instruction,
the Conferences of Bishops, necessarily in collaboration with the
national and diocesan Commissions and with other experts,
shall provide for the publication of a directory or repertory of
texts intended for liturgical singing. This document shall be
transmitted for the necessary recognitio to the Congregation
for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments."

2001-dec Directory on Popular Piety and the Liturgy Principles and Guidelines
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20020513_vers-direttorio_en.html

2006-xxx
http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/MUSIC FDLCnew.ppt
(right click and save now, you never know when it might disappear!)
(in fact, I thought there was also another file, but cannot find it)

From the Sistine Chapel
http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/cap-mus-sistina/documents/index_inni_en.htm