The End of Reform of the Reform in France?
  • Perhaps you miscounted, by one?


    Haha! Excellent. I am duly riposted.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Perhaps you miscounted, by one?


    Make that two.
  • Bin demütigt....
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,457
    The 9 lessons and carols is all very nice... Until you have sung Matins on Christmas eve, so make that three.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,146
    If it's any consolation, Arthur Henry Mann hated Eric Milner-White's carol service.

    I whole-heartedly agree with Milner-White that the Church needs more popular (he said 'imaginative') forms of worship. We had that, in many places, until Vatican II, which ironically, promoted such. I think that if every parish actually followed Sacrosanctum Concillium we would have a vibrant Church once again, and we could get the devotions out of Mass, along with the hymns, and get on with making the Mass what it is supposed to be, according to the liturgical books, which includes the Graduale Romanum.

    In my parish we have Gorzkie Zale (sung meditations on the Passion) on the Sundays during Lent; we sing the Litany of Loreto on the Sundays of May, with Exposition and Benediction; we have an Advent Carol Service on Advent III, we also have Forty Hours (with a big procession) every September around Michaelmas: These are 'popular' devotional services, sung in the afternoon, separate from Masses. Next year, I would like to add an Epiphany-tide Carol Service on the Sunday after Epiphany. I'd love to have other devotional services throughout the year.

    We had Vespers on Sundays before CoVID, which is something that we want to start up again after Easter: This, of course, is the Liturgy of the Church, and not a 'popular' devotion, but still popular.

    In my opinion every parish should be doing this, rather than shoving everything into the Mass, as has become normal since Vatican II.
  • Denis Crouan's case is a tough one. It must be said his association never reached the shadow of the importance and influence one could find in the "Association for Latin Liturgy" in the UK, for instance. The demise of Pro Liturgia is not so big an event in France, most Catholics have quite simply never heard of it.

    As for the RotR, I think people ought not to misunderstand it. If it simply means a "copypaste" of the Traditional rite, then it simply will not succeed. On the other hand, if it means a recovery of the riches of the Roman rite into it's revised version, that of St Paul VI, then it might have some success, though I am have little optimism in that matter.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • I've bailed from parish life and have been worshipping almost exclusively at the Benedictine abbey that I'm attached to as oblate. There's nothing to "reform" of the reform there, because they did the OF correctly in the first place; Latin Gregorian propers and ordinary (and Greek for the Kyrie and on Good Friday), French plainchant for the rest, all very beautifully concelebrated, with reverence, incense on Sundays and feasts, pipe organ, solemn processions, etc. etc.

    The only time I worship in a parish is when our Gregorian schola happens to be singing at one, about once a month until the pandemic. Then the music is, dare I say, good, but often the rest is a train wreck.

    Our parishes (French-speaking) are a wasteland of un-singable, insipid music, mangled rubrics, and "innovative" pastors and liturgical committees, and incomprehensible and wishy-washy homilies. It weren't for the abbey I would have bailed totally long ago.

    As for the TLM... even with Summorum Pontificum, there was a total of 3 TLMs for a province of 9 million mostly nominally Catholic inhabitants, none of them anywhere close to where I live. That said, I prefer the OF Mass... correctly celebrated.

    Ora
  • I would encourage people not to give up, on the following grounds. I regularly teach seminarians, and on the whole, they are much more "conservative" than the priests currently serving. (If anything, I worry that there may be some sort of backlash in which pre-conciliar problems reappear.) The point is this: the up-and-coming generation of priests, at least in some dioceses, is probably going to look kindly on RotR efforts. So don't give up!
  • Here in Québec there's a small problem. There are very few priests coming out of seminary... and the ones that do are too few in number to be able to shake up the barque of Peter. In 2019 in the Grand Séminaire there were only 15 future priests in formation.

    Ora
  • “Grand” indeed.