What's this about the St. Michael prayer?
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,157
    As ever things are not quite clear cut. The Confiteor used to be heard two or three times at Mass seeking the prayers of both Mary and St Michael. I have no problem with silent private devotions, but collective chanting can hardly be described as private.
    I think I would have no problem with entrance processional stational devotions, or recessional devotions like stopping at the Lady Chapel for a Salve, or for the celebrant saying the Last Gospel as he returns to the sacristy, although the 1570 Missal rejected these practices, which were common outside the Curia.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW tomjaw
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    to oppose the association of praise & worship music with the Mass on the grounds that it is devotional in character and not suited for liturgy
    Has someone made that argument? It simply isn’t suited for a liturgy, especially Mass… I don’t consider P&W to be devotional, but to be a preferential genre in the realm of entertainment.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw dad29
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,763
    I don’t consider P&W to be devotional, but to be a preferential genre in the realm of entertainment.


    I never found it entertaining.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,151
    How do you know that those rosaries are not the only thing holding back brimstone from falling from the sky or a world-wide famine, or a nuclear war? It's very likely they are the only thing keeping the veil from tearing. ("Will you spare them, Lord, but for these few?")

    “One day through the Rosary and the Scapular I will save the world.”
    -Blessed Virgin Mary to St. Dominic

    “Say the Rosary every day to obtain peace for the world.”
    -Our.Lady.of.Fatima, 1917

    “If our age in its pride laughs at and rejects Our Lady’s Rosary, a countless legion of the most saintly men of every age and of every condition have not only held it most dear and have most piously recited it but have also used it at all times as a most powerful weapon to overcome the devil, to preserve the purity of their lives, to acquire virtue more zealously, in a word, to promote peace among men.”
    -Pope Pius XI

    “The greatest method of praying is to pray the Rosary.” .
    -St. Francis de Sales

    “If you say the Rosary faithfully until death, I assure you that in spite of the gravity of your sins, you shall receive a never-fading crown of glory. Even if you are on the brink of damnation, even if you have one foot in Hell, even if you have sold your soul to the devil as sorcerers do who practice black magic, and even if you are a heretic as obstinate as a devil, sooner or later you will be converted and will amend your life and save your soul, if and mark well what I say — if you say the Holy Rosary devoutly every day until death for the purpose of knowing the truth and obtaining contrition and pardon of your sins.”
    -St. Louis de Montfort

    “Those who say the Rosary daily and wear the Brown Scapular and who do a little more, will go straight to Heaven.”
    -St. Alphonsus Ligouri

    “Among all the devotions approved by the Church none has been favored by so many miracles as the devotion of the most Holy Rosary. ”
    -Pope Pius IX

    “The rosary is the scourge of the devil”
    -Pope Adrian VI

    “The Rosary is the best therapy for these distraught, unhappy, fearful, and frustrated souls, precisely because it involves the simultaneous use of three powers: the physical, the vocal, and the spiritual, and in that order.”
    -Archbishop Fulton Sheen

    “The rosary is a treasure of graces”
    -Pope Paul V

    “The Rosary is THE WEAPON.”
    -St. Padre Pio

    “The rosary is the most powerful weapon to touch the Heart of Jesus, Our redeemer, who loves His Mother.”
    -St. Louis Marie Grignion de Montfort

    “If there were one million families praying the Rosary every day, the entire world would be saved.”
    -Pope St. Pius X

    “There is no surer means of calling down God’s blessing upon the family than the daily recitation of the Rosary.”
    -Pope Pius XII

    “We put great confidence in the Holy Rosary for the healing of evils which afflict our times.”
    -Pope Pius XII

    “The Rosary is a school for learning true Christian perfection.”
    -Pope John XXIII

    "Chist created the Flaggelum de Funiculis to drive out those who do not belong... The Rosary is the Flaggelum de Funiculis of the Blessed Virgin, and with it drives out demons and devils from our midst"
    -Francis of Ottsville

    "The Rosary... by it, heaven hears you and hell fears you"
    -Francis of Ottsville
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,763
    The rosary is a good devotion. It is not on the same level as liturgy and shouldn't be attached to, or inserted into, liturgy.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,151
    Most living souls have no idea what the power of the rosary alone has already prevented from falling upon mankind. Make no mistake about it... what comes directly from the hands of your Mother is only for your welfare, goodness and safety. Next to the Mass, it IS the most powerful prayer on earth.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,763
    Perhaps so, but whatever the rosary can do, the mass can do more.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,151
    Perhaps so, but whatever the rosary can do, the mass can do more.
    Pray both. Daily, if possible. One does not displace the other just as the Son would never displace his Mother nor the Mother displace her Son.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw dad29
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    I never found it entertaining.
    Nor I. I also don’t enjoy “Christian music,” which I consider to be the same thing.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW tomjaw
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,763
    Pray both. Daily, if possible. One does not displace the other just as the Son would never displace his Mother nor the Mother displace her Son.


    Therein lies the problem. The celestial banquet is superior to any devotion. They are not equivalents. Unfortunately, some act as if they are. No devotion whether from Christ's mother or grandmother, could equal the reenactment of his sacrifice.
  • Schoenbergian,

    Praying the rosary, publicly, during the Mass, in place of the Sanctus, would be problematic. Neither the rosary nor the Mass is bad, but replacing something which is required with something which isn't required is usually a bad idea. The Last Gospel, while completely in harmony with the Mass, takes place after the Ite, missa est.

    On the other hand, taking the Tract for the first Sunday of Lent and replacing it with OEW is problematic, but not nearly so problematic as I am the bread of Life in place of the Communion Antiphon.
    Thanked by 2ServiamScores tomjaw
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,185
    Let me understand this, Schonbergian. Does a Rosary said BEFORE the Mass, or a prayer to St Michael recited AFTER the Mass, derogate from the value of the Mass itself?

    That's your implication. Do you wish to defend that?
    Thanked by 2tomjaw ServiamScores
  • "Entertaining" could mean a number of things, I suppose.

    Comically bad, for example.
    Attention grabbing.
    Amusing.
    Cringe-worthy, but being done by someone else.
    Diverting.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw sdtalley3
  • The rosary is a good devotion. It is not on the same level as liturgy and shouldn't be attached to, or inserted into, liturgy.


    Praying the rosary before Mass isn’t inserting it into the Mass. Before Vatican II people used to gather at the church just to pray the rosary together and to socialize a bit. They had rosary sodalities. (It’s actually how my paternal grandparents met.) Times have changed, people are busier, neighborhood parishes aren’t really a thing like they used to be. People like praying the rosary together in a group. It is said that groups of people praying the rosary together for the same intentions is efficacious. People tend to gather together before Mass. Seems like an okay time to pray the rosary together in a group. I’d rather people pray the rosary than visit before Mass.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,157
    It's a matter of balance, not simple black or white. In the 1950s on a weekday in central Dublin one could go to mid-day Mass, and as the celebrant approached the altar one of his confreres would ascend the pulpit and lead the Rosary throughout the Mass, with a pause during the consecration. That is a very different thing than gathering when there is no liturgical service to pray the Rosary, or from a para-liturgical evening service of Rosary, Sermon & Benediction, which used to be common at that time.
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,113
    Praying the rosary in a group at church gains an indulgence (I think plenary.)
  • If it's done by everyone all together, it's liturgy


    That's an interesting formulation. Does it also apply to applause for the newlyweds?


    I'll bite: yes. It's "the work of the people". They're there to witness the vows and to support the newlyweds and the cause of marriage in general.

    Is applause appropriate to the Mass? Not really. But in the Nuptial Mass, the couple is hitched before the Mass actually begins. Except in the Novus Ordo.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,151
    on someone mentioning the plenary indulgence above, correct me if I am wrong... (I think Montfort mentions this) ...each person also gains the benefit of everyone else's rosary prayed as though they had prayed each one themself. (will see if i can find reference)
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,185
    You bit on that apple. "Not really" is a better response.

    Applauding a couple, eh?

    The Mass is called the 'sacred liturgy', which is distinct from 'liturgy.' The difference between the 'sacred' liturgy and any other liturgy should be apparent to anyone.

    Applause for a couple doesn't convey the sense of 'sacred.'