Entrance Antiphon for Christmas Day (OF)
  • Don9of11Don9of11
    Posts: 684
    I'm curious why the Introit or Antiphon for Christmas Day uses "They name him Angel of Good Council" vs "They name him Wonder-Counselor" as you find it in Isaiah 9-5 (6).

    Why would we refer to "the child born unto us" that is Jesus Christ, as an Angel of Good Council? It seems contrary to my Catholic teaching to refer to Jesus as an Angel or even a Messenger.
  • Richard R.
    Posts: 774
    Many chants use earlier translations of scripture, either verbatim or in paraphrase. A history of translations would be helpful to learn when and how "magni consilii Angelus" became "admirabilis Consiliarius". I suspect Angelus in this context had a broader meaning than we give it now, and I think I have seen this translated "messenger of great counsel" somewhere.

    Had the chant ever penetrated the consciences of the powers-what-be in any meaningful way, I'm sure these texts would have been "updated" at some point. I suppose there's still time...
    Thanked by 1Don9of11
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,371
    The Old Testament did not understand the Messiah to be God in person, that had not been revealed though there are hints such as the name Emmanuel. Jesus claimed for himself, in the synagogue at Nazareth, the role of messenger - He has sent me to bring the Good News to the poor ...
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Don,

    I don't have the OF stuff in front of me, so I'll hasard a guess.

    1) We refer to Christ as the Messias (the annointed one of God) when He is God Himself.
    This isn't an insult to God, but a statement of the theological truth that man dying on the Cross, by itself, saved no one.

    2) Given that it's a translation, could it merely be a clunky translation? Surely, for example, He would be an angel of good Counsel, not Council?

    3) Something is confusing about your reference: "Psalm Is. 9-5(6)"

    4) My Missal (EF) has the following note attached to the very question you raise: "God's great plan, the work of salvation, which Christ came to announce and carry out [sic]. THe text of Isaias, consiliarius - onderful counsellor, has been intentionally modified by [sic] the liturgy."
  • Don9of11Don9of11
    Posts: 684
    Chris,

    I've seen the Psalm text referenced as 9:5 and 9:6. So I indicated it in parentheses, that's all.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    The "Is" is more confusing, but thank you for the clarification.
    Thanked by 1Don9of11
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 966
    This is because the text of the introit quotes Isaiah 9:6 as it appears in the Greek Septuagint (LXX). Later Latin translations use the Hebrew text, which is slightly different.

    See for example Eusebius of Caesarea, Commentarius in Isaiam and his description of the differences between translations. (No link alas, I have to rush to Mass at Midnight (which is not at midnight this year...).
    Thanked by 1Don9of11
  • Don9of11Don9of11
    Posts: 684
    Chris,
    I see what you mean. My bad. It's not the Psalm but Isaiah.
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