How far does a ♭ extend?
  • Geremia
    Posts: 261
    The 1961 Liber Usualis (PDF) "Rules for Interpretation" p. xviij:
    The Flat.
    In the Vatican Edition the Flat holds good: a) for a whole word; b) as far as the first bar line — even quarter-bar — which occurs after it. The Ta returns to its natural state with a new word, after any bar-line and, of course, whenever a natural (♮) is placed before it. In a few pieces the Flat is placed near the Clef on each section of the stave; it then makes flat every Te or B in the piece unless contradicted by a natural.
    So basically a ♭ extends at least to the end of the word but no farther than any bar-line?

    The seemingly redundant ♭ symbols in the 1ˢᵗ line of the Alleluia for the 2ⁿᵈ Sunday of Advent
    image
    confused me, because I thought the ♭ symbol extended no farther than to the end of a word.

    The penultimate and last lines of the original scan also show two ♭ symbols for one word (íbimus), so it seems a line break also resets a ♭.

    Are there any examples of
    1. a single ♭ symbol extending across more than one word?
    2. a ♭ resetting with a ♮ before the end of a word?
    3. multiple ♭ or ♮ symbols in one word (on the same line and separated by no bar-lines)?
  • Drake
    Posts: 219
    In the first line, the flat would be canceled by the quarter bar (in fact, by any bar). That is why the flat must be written a second time just after the quarter bar.

    In my chant tutorial, I use the tract Beatus Vir because it has a very wide variety of chant elements, including changes from flat to natural within a word. Strictly speaking, the naturals shown in the piece aren't necessary because of the quarter bar coming just before them, but I assume they are written in to make it more obvious. There are, however, examples of both Ti and Te in the same word within this tract. I elaborate a bit on this in the "Flat" tab within the tutorial.
    Thanked by 6madorganist Chris Garton-Zavesky CHGiffen Geremia tomjaw bhcordova
  • madorganist
    Posts: 906
    Are there any examples of a ♭ resetting at the end of a word but before a bar-line?
    Sure. The Communion Dum venerit for the fourth Sunday after Easter is one of them.
  • FKulash
    Posts: 78
    I assume that when a flat symbol occurs at the very beginning of each line, as in the attached file,then a natural would apply to the end of the word or the next bar, whichever came first.
    Does anyone know of an example where that happens?
    O_Memoriale.jpg
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  • madorganist
    Posts: 906
    No; it's like a key signature. Refer to the end of the passage from the Rules for Interpretation quoted in the OP. I know of no example with the flat printed at the beginning of every line where there is also a B-natural anywhere in the chant.
    Thanked by 2ServiamScores tomjaw
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    FKulash,

    The Festal Tone of the Ave Regina Caelorum has this same phenomenon.

    As to the naturalized b-flat.... I'll have to think about that.
  • Geremia
    Posts: 261
    @madorganist:
    Are there any examples of a ♭ resetting at the end of a word but before a bar-line?
    Sure. The Communion
    Dum venerit for the fourth Sunday after Easter is one of them.

    image

    How do you know it resets at the end of the word vénerit? The porrectus rá in Paráclitus contains a Ti or a Te?
  • madorganist
    Posts: 906
    How do you know it resets at the end of the word vénerit?
    Because that's the rule. If you doubt it, compare the modern notation editions—or Montpellier H 159, Graz/Klosterneuburg 807, Zwettl 196, etc.
    The porrectus rá in Paráclitus contains a Ti or a Te?
    Ti!
    Thanked by 2tomjaw CCooze
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,721
    How do you know it resets at the end of the word vénerit?

    The word is done, and according to traditional praxis, "Dum venerit" would be intoned by a cantor, and then the rest of the choir would join in at "paraclitus", so there is both a shift of word and a dramatic shift from cantor to schola.
  • sdtalley3sdtalley3
    Posts: 260
    If I didn’t know any better by looking at the music, the 3rd note of the “ra” in Paraclitus maintains the flat and is not reset after the intonation, this would be otherwise if there was a quarter bar after the Dum venerit.
  • madorganist
    Posts: 906
    If I didn’t know any better
    Fortunately, if you have read the Rules for Interpretation or the preface to the Vatican edition, you do know better!
  • Geremia
    Posts: 261
    Because that's the rule.
    Ah, because "The Ta returns to its natural state with a new word".

    So, a ♭ extends at least to the end of the word but no farther than any bar-line, whichever comes first.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    if you use logic in analyzing the melodic line, you can also surmise that the appoggiaturas ascend and descend from the TI and TE in proper order... (leaving a TI to DO, leaving a TE to LA)... this is a common usage in the treatment of a TI or TE in chant.
    Thanked by 1Ralph Bednarz
  • madorganist
    Posts: 906
    So, a ♭ extends at least to the end of the word but no farther than any bar-line, whichever comes first.
    Exactly. The Preface to the Vatican Edition says the following:
    It is to be noted that B-flat, when it occurs, only holds good as far as the next natural, or dividing line, or new word.
  • Geremia
    Posts: 261
    Are there any examples of
    1. a single ♭ symbol extending across more than one word?
    2. a ♭ resetting with a ♮ before the end of a word?
    3. multiple ♭ or ♮ symbols in one word (on the same line and separated by no bar-lines)?
    #2 & #3 are illustrated by "veritáte" or "Dómine" in the gradual for the 4th Sunday of Advent:
    image
  • Geremia
    Posts: 261
    Square Notes p. 21:
    The effect of a flat lasts:
    1. Through a whole word
    2. Until the next bar of any kind
    3. Until cancelled by a natural

    Chants of the Church: Selected Gregorian Chants p. vi:
    The only accidental a permitted in the chant is the FLAT ♭, which may only be used on the note si (ti). The flat is effective only a) as long as the word lasts, b) until the next bar line of any kind, c) until revoked by the natural sign.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Take a look at the solemn tone Ave Regina Caelorum.
  • madorganist
    Posts: 906
    Beating a dead horse with both of the two previous comments!
    Thanked by 1MatthewRoth
  • mahrt
    Posts: 517
    In the case of the solemn Ave Regina Caelorum, the natural signs at Ex qua and Super are unnecessary, but may have been added, since the flat on Ave might be confused with a signature.
  • Ralph BednarzRalph Bednarz
    Posts: 489
    When in doubt Bb when B is an ornament approaching a structure pitch A , and B natural if approaching DO.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,939
    Like an English cadence?
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,937
    We just had practice for the week (three sung/solemn Masses: Ss Peter and Paul, the Precious Blood, IV Sunday after Pentecost), and the gradual Constitues eos principes of Ss Peter and Paul is a good example of the bar-line rule, as the flat in "Domine" is cancelled by the quarter bar which follows.

    Gregobase (I have no idea how to link the score like is done earlier in the thread.)
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Jacques PerrièreJacques Perrière
    Posts: 139
    @MatthewRoth: add an image with the direct link to the SVG image using the ID 3444
    https://gregobase.selapa.net/scores/svg/3444.svg

    and surround it with a link to the score:
    https://gregobase.selapa.net/chant.php?id=3444

    image
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
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