Cardinal Cupich: "The Gift of Traditionis Custodes"
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Interesting that in my town, a Lutheran congregation of German heritage still has its ad orientem altar. All the Catholics and Episcopalians have turned theirs around.
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  • My parents in law attend a Lutheran Church that is very modern in design and essentially has stadium style seating… In the midst of all of that, they still use a communion rail. In that singular respect I am envious of their church. To top it all off, they don’t even believe in the real presence.
  • Of course, in the Lutheran Divine Service, the orientation question is somewhat on its head...

    The "sacrament" / "sacrifice" distinction translates to versus populum (what God offers to us) and versus Deum (what we offer to God) moments in the liturgy.

    Thus the orientation of the minister towards the altar at the time of the Institution doesn't translate to presenting the Sacrifice of Christ afresh to the Father, but in the Lutheran understanding of "sacrifice" as that which we offer God, namely, bread and wine. Then, when the orientation reverses when the elements are distributed to the people, the signification is "sacramental": God now offers His own Body and Blood to us.

    And what do you mean, Lutherans don't believe in the Real Presence???

    Right out of the Augsburg Confession: "Of the Supper of the Lord they teach that the Body and Blood of Christ are truly present, and are distributed." (CA, art. 10, Confessio)

    and from Melanchthon's Apology on the same article, "We have cited these testimonies [. . .] in order that all who may read them may the more clearly perceive that we defend the doctrine received in the entire Church, that in the Lord’s Supper the body and blood of Christ are truly and substantially present, and are truly tendered with those things which are seen, bread and wine. And we speak of the presence of the living Christ [living body]; for we know that death hath no more dominion over Him." (CA, art. 10, Apologia)
  • Elmar
    Posts: 506
    Thanks NiNo to give those interesting citations of the reformers!
    Just underlines how hard it is for German laity to understand what the difference between 'our' catholic and 'their' lutheran beliefs actually are that stand in the way of sacramental unity.
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Some local Lutherans tell me they believe in consubstantiation not transubstantiation. They say the elements are not changed but the body and blood of Christ coexist within the bread and wine. This change does not require the actions of a priest but the consent and participation of the congregation. This idea goes all the way back to Luther but it becomes rather ambiguous in practice.
  • And what do you mean, Lutherans don't believe in the Real Presence???

    There are quite a few stripes of lutheranism these days, and it's my understanding that not everyone believes in the real presence. Judging on some of the other beliefs/practices (women clergy, for instance) that come along with some of those more liberal stripes, I can't say that I'm surprised by this fact.

    From a personal side, I can tell you that my in-laws have said that they don't believe it, at any rate, as was evidenced when they complained about not being able to receive communion at our wedding. My mom cornered them and said, "well, do you believe it's really Jesus in the bread and wine?" to which they replied "no." Of course, one could corner over half of Catholics today who would similarly reply 'no' so I suppose that doesn't mean anything, alas.
    Thanked by 2NihilNominis Elmar
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    In my student days - Indians were riding horses around the building and flinging arrows at us - the Lutheran Center students visited our Catholic Newman Center at our university. They came to Benediction and their comment to the exposed host was, "magic."
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    One of the arguments circulated for demoting the old liturgy seems to be that it promotes "pre-conciliar" forms of spiritual life. And the argument for opposing "pre-conciliar" forms of spiritual life seems to be based on the fact that they are based in the old liturgy. So A is bad because B is bad, and B is bad because A is bad.

    But the 1983 Code of Canon Law, in one of its instructional canons, tells us:
    Can. 214 The Christian faithful have the right [...] to follow their own form of spiritual life so long as it is consonant with the doctrine of the Church.


  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    It is unfortunate that the old vs. new liturgy has become so politicized. If the two camps did their own thing and left each other alone, much conflict and rancor could be avoided.
    Thanked by 3sdtalley3 stulte Elmar
  • Charles,

    Those who propose change are the ones "politicizing" the liturgy, just like those who say "We shouldn't make the Communion Rail political" are, in fact, trying to ignore the right and proper teaching about worthy reception of Holy Communion.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    I think a big problem is putting the two congregations in the same buildings expecting that what was designed for one will work for the other. If, for example, the TLM folks built their own buildings, they wouldn't have much valid concern over what the NO folks did with communion rails. The reverse would also be true. I have decided the two groups are really not compatible. It creates conflict by putting the two together.
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  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,080
    Catholics may follow their own private devotions and spiritual practices, but they may not decide for themselves about an authorized or unauthorized lex orandi. Lex orandi concerns the Church's liturgy and public acts/rituals of the Church; lex orandi is communal and institutional, not a matter of personal spiritual preference.

    The debate and difference of opinion is, rather, about whether the continued celebration of the preconciliar Mass accords with or is appropriate in a postconciliar Church that decreed at Vatican II to reform (and, by implication, replace) the preconciliar Mass. Does attachment to the preconciliar Mass ipso facto entail at least a mild rejection of Vatican II ecclesiology and liturgical reforms, even while generously admitting the validity of the new liturgical rites? (i.e., Vatican II is fine for thee but not for me, thank you.) Is the formal and explicit deauthorization of the preconciliar lex orandi necessary to unify the Roman Church around the postconciliar lex orandi?

    I believe so, if the Church is to be committed to being a post-Vatican II Church. I don't see how the Roman Church can continue to accept a schizophrenic leges orandi that maintains preconciliar and postconciliar leges orandi simultaneously in its institutional character and prayer.

    One or the other has to be chosen. Pope Francis is committing the Church to the postconciliar lex orandi.
    Thanked by 2Don9of11 CharlesW
  • Mark, does it not concern you that, by your own admission in the way that you are arguing, the postconcilliar Church is so different from the preconcilliar that the old ways must be eliminated so that the new may be the only options left standing? How is this compatible with your claims that the N.O. is simply another organic, naturally-occurring iteration of the Roman Mass?
  • If the buildings are incompatible, it is because the rites are incompatible, surely, since compatible rites could coexist even where minor differences could be found.
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    So separate them and they can both argue unto infinity over which is the authentic Roman Rite. Let them go their separate ways.
  • Charles,

    How can there be a unique form of the Roman Rite if the pre-conciliar and post conciliar forms are so separate as to need each a distinct building?
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Why does there have to be a unique rite? The church has many rites. What would be the problem with two more? It could lead to peace in our time if we can separate the people.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw stulte
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    So they want us Trads to help keep the bad ship Vat II afloat? Too little too late, here in Europe we will not have a Church soon, the Seminaries are closing and emptying, our priests are ageing, and will be retiring soon. The Vat II church has no future here.

    Don't worry us Trads will be around to rebuild once we have a pope that is not filled by the spirit of Vatican II.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    I think many have had enough of this 50+ year battle that has raged between the two camps. Separate and let history decide which rite lasts and which doesn't.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw stulte
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,080
    The postconciliar Church is not different from the preconciliar Church, but the postconciliar Church does have an explicit self-understanding/ecclesiology that is significantly improved and more well-rounded in comparison with the explicit self-understanding/ecclesiology of the preconciliar Church. (Cf. Lumen Gentium and Gaudium et Spes)

    The Church has decided that the postconciliar liturgy more adequately expresses the more well-rounded ecclesiology taught by Vatican II, notably the Church as the People of God and the dignity of the laity.

    The postconciliar liturgy is the unique lex orandi of the postconciliar Church. From the standpoint of a postconciliar perspective, the preconciliar liturgy is ritually deficient for at least this reason: it relegates the assembly/congregation to having no official role in the Mass. The postconciliar liturgy corrects that ritual deficiency.

    If we are going to be a postconciliar Church, the Church's liturgy must reflect conciliar and postconciliar developments. That entails deauthorizing the former Mass, which does not adequately express in ritual the ecclesiology of Vatican II.

    It would be (is) anachronistic to celebrate the preconciliar liturgy in the postconciliar Church. That doesn't mean the preconciliar liturgy is suddenly bad whereas formerly it was good. It's just not the Church's most adequate liturgical expression of its faith anymore, not the best lex orandi for the postconciliar Church.

    In other words, the preconciliar liturgy's time is over. To everything there is a season.

    To return to the preconciliar liturgy as an appropriate liturgical expression for the Church, you would have to undo Vatican II. Pope Francis has said that's not going to happen. Pope Francis has decided that the Church is firmly committed to Vatican II's ecclesiology and liturgical reform. No going back.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Don't worry us Trads will be around to rebuild once we have a pope that is not filled by the spirit of Vatican II.


    Nah, you will be busy reading several lines ahead in the missal to see if you can find something heretical or a violation of the rubrics.
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  • Does the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom adequately express in ritual the ecclesiology of Vatican II?
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  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,080
    From Sacrosanctum Concilium:

    3. Wherefore the sacred Council judges that the following principles concerning the promotion and reform of the liturgy should be called to mind, and that practical norms should be established.

    Among these principles and norms there are some which can and should be applied both to the Roman rite and also to all the other rites. The practical norms which follow, however, should be taken as applying only to the Roman rite, except for those which, in the very nature of things, affect other rites as well.

    4. Lastly, in faithful obedience to tradition, the sacred Council declares that holy Mother Church holds all lawfully acknowledged rites to be of equal right and dignity; that she wishes to preserve them in the future and to foster them in every way. The Council also desires that, where necessary, the rites be revised carefully in the light of sound tradition, and that they be given new vigor to meet the circumstances and needs of modern times.


    I think the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, not being the Roman Rite, was not subject to the practical norms for reform that the Council mandated.

    The discussion concerning Traditionis Custodes is solely about the Roman Rite: which lex orandi of the Roman Rite is most adequate for the postconciliar Church.

    Eastern Catholic rites are a separate matter.
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  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    My impression of Russian Orthodox Liturgy is that there is ample acknowledgement of the congregation. The Pius V Missal failed, as I have already remarked, to engage the congregation in the ways demanded by Trent.
    And the Paul VI Missal was pretty poor at fulfilling VII, and needs substantial Reform.
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  • As I read this whole thread, I’m once again reminded that Paul VI specifically stated that it was a non-dogmatic council, but rather a “pastoral council”. (Whatever that means.)

    And yet most Catholics treat it as though it is more important than Trent or even Jerusalem.

    Those who try and adhere to the teachings and liturgy of a real life, explicitly-dogmatic council are derided and kicked out of dioceses while those who follow the radical changes of a non-dogmatic council and it’s novel liturgy are presumed to be in the right. Fascinating times we live in.
  • The Eastern Rites are a separate matter from the Church's self-understanding as expressed in the Liturgy. Right?
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  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    the postconciliar Church does have an explicit self-understanding/ecclesiology that is significantly improved and more well-rounded in comparison with the explicit self-understanding/ecclesiology of the preconciliar Church.


    Glad you explained that for us rubes.
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Eastern churches are not rites but self-governing churches in union with Rome. The liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, as well as the other eastern liturgies - yes, there are several - is used in the Greek and Slavic churches. The Syrians have their own rites. In any event, the Eastern Catholic Churches are not subject to the western code of canon law nor to its liturgical prescriptions. Eastern Catholic churches have their own code of canon law and the Orthodox appeal to apostolic practice from the church fathers and care little what the Vatican does. Vatican II didn't address the east. Actually, neither did Trent.

    Those who try and adhere to the teachings and liturgy of a real life, explicitly-dogmatic council are derided and kicked out of dioceses while those who follow the radical changes of a non-dogmatic council and it’s novel liturgy are presumed to be in the right. Fascinating times we live in.


    Interesting that in the west neither Trent nor Vatican II wrote a liturgy for the western churches. In both instances the liturgies were formulated and propagated by popes after the councils ended.

  • Certainly the Eastern churches are more than their rites. Certainly the recent council called itself Ecumenical and addressed itself to and about the whole Church, including of course Orientalium Ecclesiarum specifically. And this only adds to the absurdity of asserting simultaneously : that the Church's improved and well-rounded new self-understanding entailed essential effects on the Roman Church’s rites; but : that the Eastern Churches’ rites are unaffected because they're a separate matter.

    It would make sense at least to exclude those rites from restoration on the grounds that they are already perfectly well-rounded and reflective of the dignity of the lay People of God. That's why I asked, above: but @MarkB makes clear that No, it’s just because the well-rounded and dignified new self-understanding just doesn't reach the East, which is a separate matter.
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  • KARU27
    Posts: 184
    This all sounds great on paper:
    https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/ecclesiology-of-vatican-ii-2069

    But then I look around at the Catholic Church today and I'm concerned about the truth and efficacy of the ecclesiology of Vatican II.
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  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    The best place for Vatican II is in the library, collecting dust with Lateran V.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    My biggest criticism of Vatican II is that it is mired in the sixties. It needs to be re-evaluated in light of what is happening in the world today. I'm not sure sixties issues are relevant to the church any more.
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  • Mark, your latest comment on this thread in response to my question is merely an elaboration on your position that the Church after the council is substantially different from before the council, therefore necessitating the destruction of the old and the implementation of the new. So I ask again. How is this not concerning?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    I look forward to seeing a list of propositions of ecclesiology that the Church has authoritatively instituted in the Council that rationally make older spiritual forms and the classic liturgy untenable. Seeing this documented from the teachings of the Council would be instructive.

    But I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for it.
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,048
    It would be (is) anachronistic to celebrate the preconciliar liturgy in the postconciliar Church. That doesn't mean the preconciliar liturgy is suddenly bad whereas formerly it was good. It's just not the Church's most adequate liturgical expression of its faith anymore, not the best lex orandi for the postconciliar Church.

    Just curious - how is it that Trent formulated a better and more robust Eucharistic theology than before, especially about the sacrifice of the Mass, yet there was no need to replace the rite that had been celebrated in the Roman church up to that point.

    And when the Council of Nicaea promulgated a better understanding of the Incarnation, and even wrote a new Creed, it didn't say that the Apostles Creed was "obsolete" let alone ban it from use because it didn't address some of the Christological issues dealt with at Nicaea.

    So you can forgive some of us for thinking that perhaps there's something strange going one here.

    Besides the fact that Vatican II itself never hinted at such a rationale for the newer rite, the major issue here is the claim that, on the one hand, the "postconciliar" Church's self-understanding is so different than before the Council as to require expression in a new rite, while at the same time insisting (as Pope Francis in TC) that the newer rite is in perfect continuity with the old. One cannot decry the traditionalists claims of rupture while basing one's entire project on just such a discontinuity.
  • Well said, Rich, precisely my point.
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  • Chonak,
    Yes, I've asked for a formulation in propositions of the binding teaching of Vatican II, and this invitation goes unanswered.

    "The Church is the People of God" isn't a dogmatic proposition, in itself, unless it is added to other dogmatic statements. Otherwise, it is complete and utter nonsense.

    "The laity has a dignity distinct from and equal to that of the clergy" is not in dispute, but it can hardly be a dogmatic statement.
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  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    The situation might call for more: perhaps the Pope will need to order the publication of a new "Syllabus of Errors", but this time listing alleged errors contained in the liturgical forms used prior to 1970.
    Thanked by 2KARU27 dad29
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,080
    The liturgical reforms are not concerning nor are they disconcerting because they were mandated, formulated, approved and promulgated by proper Church authority. You either believe the Holy Spirit guides councils or you don't.

    The Church after the council is not substantially different -- it's not different at all -- from the Church before the council, but there was a change in emphasis in and a rediscovery of neglected ecclesiology, and a readiness to implement pastoral accommodations (e.g., the use of the vernacular), which are reflected in the reformed liturgy.

    From the GIRM:

    6. When it set out its instructions for the renewal of the Order of Mass, the Second Vatican Council, using, namely, the same words as did St. Pius V in the Apostolic Constitution Quo primum, by which the Missal of Trent was promulgated in 1570, also ordered, among other things, that a number of rites be restored “to the original norm of the holy Fathers.” From the fact that the same words are used, it can be noted how the two Roman Missals, although four centuries have intervened, embrace one and the same tradition. Furthermore, if the inner elements of this tradition are reflected upon, it is also understood how outstandingly and felicitously the older Roman Missal is brought to fulfillment in the later one.


    Holy Mother Church has authoritatively declared that the new Missal and the older Missal embrace the same tradition and that the new Missal is a fulfillment of the older Missal. The new Missal is therefore superior to the older without denigrating the older Missal, which served well for its era. The new Missal is superior because it is a more adequate lex orandi for the postconciliar Church. Being a more adequate lex orandi, the new Missal should supplant the older Missal.

    From Sacrosanctum Concilium:

    14. Mother Church earnestly desires that all the faithful should be led to that fully conscious, and active participation in liturgical celebrations which is demanded by the very nature of the liturgy. Such participation by the Christian people as "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a redeemed people (1 Pet. 2:9; cf. 2:4-5), is their right and duty by reason of their baptism.

    In the restoration and promotion of the sacred liturgy, this full and active participation by all the people is the aim to be considered before all else; for it is the primary and indispensable source from which the faithful are to derive the true Christian spirit; and therefore pastors of souls must zealously strive to achieve it, by means of the necessary instruction, in all their pastoral work.


    30. To promote active participation, the people should be encouraged to take part by means of acclamations, responses, psalmody, antiphons, and songs, as well as by actions, gestures, and bodily attitudes. And at the proper times all should observe a reverent silence.

    31. The revision of the liturgical books must carefully attend to the provision of rubrics also for the people's parts.


    The council envisioned a liturgy in which the people would have an active and official part by means of vocal and gestural participation, and that such participation would be provided for in the rubrics of the Mass. That immediately excludes the unreformed, preconciliar liturgy from conforming to the mind and will of the council fathers about the proper form of the revised Roman Rite that was to be developed in accord with the council's mandate for liturgical reform. The preconciliar liturgy does not satisfy the expectations for the participation of the assembly/congregation that the council expressly mandated.

    From the GIRM:

    5. Moreover, by this nature of the ministerial Priesthood, something else is put in its proper light, something certainly to be held in great esteem, namely, the royal Priesthood of the faithful, whose spiritual sacrifice is brought to completion through the ministry of the Bishop and the Priests, in union with the Sacrifice of Christ, the sole Mediator. For the celebration of the Eucharist is the action of the whole Church, and in it each one should carry out solely but totally that which pertains to him, in virtue of the place of each within the People of God. The result of this is that greater consideration is also given to some aspects of the celebration that have sometimes been accorded less attention in the course of the centuries. For this people is the People of God, purchased by Christ’s Blood, gathered together by the Lord, nourished by his word, the people called to present to God the prayers of the entire human family, a people that gives thanks in Christ for the mystery of salvation by offering his Sacrifice, a people, finally, that is brought together in unity by Communion in the Body and Blood of Christ. This people, though holy in its origin, nevertheless grows constantly in holiness by conscious, active, and fruitful participation in the mystery of the Eucharist.


    The reformed liturgy gives greater consideration and more adequate ritual expression to the Church as the People of God, which was sometimes neglected in prior centuries. One way that it does that is by providing official parts of the Mass that are said by the whole people, which is what the council fathers expressly mandated. The new Mass is a liturgy in which the whole People of God is ritually recognized and participates in different ways corresponding to their role in the Church. The older Mass is deficient because it lacks the explicit ritual, liturgical expression of the Church as the People of God that the new Mass provides.

    The preamble to the GIRM, as it were, provides a liturgical vision and theological justification for the new Missal, and explains that the reformed liturgy is an apt lex orandi for the postconciliar Church. Many of you would do well to (re)read paragraphs 1-15; it should settle some things that get discussed here.
  • Mark,

    I wholeheartedly accept everything which the Second Vatican Council taught as binding in faith because such declarations can't depart from the deposit of faith.

    I reject as NOT BINDING anything which is merely proposed as pastorally useful, since there is abundant evidence that the Council Fathers used "in our time" very often, as if they were aware that there was a "sell by" date on the package.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw KARU27
  • Moreover, by this nature of the ministerial Priesthood, something else is put in its proper light, something certainly to be held in great esteem, namely, the royal Priesthood of the faithful, whose spiritual sacrifice is brought to completion through the ministry of the Bishop and the Priests, in union with the Sacrifice of Christ, the sole Mediator. For the celebration of the Eucharist is the action of the whole Church, and in it each one should carry out solely but totally that which pertains to him, in virtue of the place of each within the People of God. The result of this is that greater consideration is also given to some aspects of the celebration that have sometimes been accorded less attention in the course of the centuries. For this people is the People of God, purchased by Christ’s Blood, gathered together by the Lord, nourished by his word, the people called to present to God the prayers of the entire human family, a people that gives thanks in Christ for the mystery of salvation by offering his Sacrifice, a people, finally, that is brought together in unity by Communion in the Body and Blood of Christ. This people, though holy in its origin, nevertheless grows constantly in holiness by conscious, active, and fruitful participation in the mystery of the Eucharist.


    Dude, I know it’s a self-selecting specialist community, but this much more adequately describes my there-for-random-weekday-feasts, pitching-in-to-help-at-every-parish-function, 20%-of-the-assembly-actually-serving-or-singing-in-the-choir Trads than the typical parish crowd (NOT TO DISPARAGE THEM — they are what faithful, duty-minded Catholics have been for centuries, and love the Lord, afaik).

    And, I think liturgical form has less to do with making more folks with that much zeal and stake in divine worship, than the existence of those stable communities where that is the culture, and folks can plug in.

    It was a nice thought in 1970, but we have decades of experience, none of which justify doing or giving license to do yet more violence to stable, fruitful Christian communities in the name of a reform that truly failed to catch in the way intended with most, or at all with many.

    Like, as a teacher, I might say, “Class, to encourage x, we are going to do y from now on,” but if y doesn’t achieve x, if the class clown uses y to distract and hijack my classroom, and so the engaged students start not doing y, to avoid the excesses of y and to achieve x, I have a choice: get mad at and fix the student who hijacked my solution y, or get mad at the students who ignored y in order to keep learning, in spite of many achieving x anyway, and force them to do it in y way, because I said so.

    Mater et magistra, after all...
  • To start, please pardon the lengthy excerpt below.

    It would be (is) anachronistic to celebrate the preconciliar liturgy in the postconciliar Church. That doesn't mean the preconciliar liturgy is suddenly bad whereas formerly it was good. It's just not the Church's most adequate liturgical expression of its faith anymore, not the best lex orandi for the postconciliar Church.


    To wit, Pius X says (among other things) in Pascendi:

    [13] ... Thus the way is open to the intrinsic evolution of dogma. An immense collection of sophisms this, that ruins and destroys all religion. Dogma is not only able, but ought to evolve and to be changed. This is strongly affirmed by the Modernists, and as clearly flows from their principles. For amongst the chief points of their teaching is this which they deduce from the principle of vital immanence; that religious formulas, to be really religious and not merely theological speculations, ought to be living and to live the life of the religious sentiment. This is not to be understood in the sense that these formulas, especially if merely imaginative, were to be made for the religious sentiment; it has no more to do with their origin than with number or quality; what is necessary is that the religious sentiment, with some modification when necessary, should vitally assimilate them. In other words, it is necessary that the primitive formula be accepted and sanctioned by the heart; and similarly the subsequent work from which spring the secondary formulas must proceed under the guidance of the heart. Hence it comes that these formulas, to be living, should be, and should remain, adapted to the faith and to him who believes. Wherefore if for any reason this adaptation should cease to exist, they lose their first meaning and accordingly must be changed. And since the character and lot of dogmatic formulas is so precarious, there is no room for surprise that Modernists regard them so lightly and in such open disrespect. And so they audaciously charge the Church both with taking the wrong road from inability to distinguish the religious and moral sense of formulas from their surface meaning, and with clinging tenaciously and vainly to meaningless formulas whilst religion is allowed to go to ruin. Blind that they are, and leaders of the blind, inflated with a boastful science, they have reached that pitch of folly where they pervert the eternal concept of truth and the true nature of the religious sentiment; with that new system of theirs they are seen to be under the sway of a blind and unchecked passion for novelty, thinking not at all of finding some solid foundation of truth, but despising the holy and apostolic traditions, they embrace other vain, futile, uncertain doctrines, condemned by the Church, on which, in the height of their vanity, they think they can rest and maintain truth itself. [sic]


    26. To finish with this whole question of faith and its shoots, it remains to be seen, Venerable Brethren, what the Modernists have to say about their development. First of all they lay down the general principle that in a living religion everything is subject to change, and must change, and in this way they pass to what may be said to be, among the chief of their doctrines, that of Evolution. To the laws of evolution everything is subject - dogma, Church, worship, the Books we revere as sacred, even faith itself, and the penalty of disobedience is death. The enunciation of this principle will not astonish anybody who bears in mind what the Modernists have had to say about each of these subjects. Having laid down this law of evolution, the Modernists themselves teach us how it works out. And first with regard to faith. The primitive form of faith, they tell us, was rudimentary and common to all men alike, for it had its origin in human nature and human life. Vital evolution brought with it progress, not by the accretion of new and purely adventitious forms from without, but by an increasing penetration of the religious sentiment in the conscience. This progress was of two kinds: negative, by the elimination of all foreign elements, such, for example, as the sentiment of family or nationality; and positive by the intellectual and moral refining of man, by means of which the idea was enlarged and enlightened while the religious sentiment became more elevated and more intense. For the progress of faith no other causes are to be assigned than those which are adduced to explain its origin. But to them must be added those religious geniuses whom we call prophets, and of whom Christ was the greatest; both because in their lives and their words there was something mysterious which faith attributed to the divinity, and because it fell to their lot to have new and original experiences fully in harmony with the needs of their time. The progress of dogma is due chiefly to the obstacles which faith has to surmount, to the enemies it has to vanquish, to the contradictions it has to repel. Add to this a perpetual striving to penetrate ever more profoundly its own mysteries. Thus, to omit other examples, has it happened in the case of Christ: in Him that divine something which faith admitted in Him expanded in such a way that He was at last held to be God. The chief stimulus of evolution in the domain of worship consists in the need of adapting itself to the uses and customs of peoples, as well as the need of availing itself of the value which certain acts have acquired by long usage. Finally, evolution in the Church itself is fed by the need of accommodating itself to historical conditions and of harmonising itself with existing forms of society. Such is religious evolution in detail. And here, before proceeding further, we would have you note well this whole theory of necessities and needs, for it is at the root of the entire system of the Modernists, and it is upon it that they will erect that famous method of theirs called the historical.

    27. Still continuing the consideration of the evolution of doctrine, it is to be noted that Evolution is due no doubt to those stimulants styled needs, but, if left to their action alone, it would run a great risk of bursting the bounds of tradition, and thus, turned aside from its primitive vital principle, would lead to ruin instead of progress. Hence, studying more closely the ideas of the Modernists, evolution is described as resulting from the conflict of two forces, one of them tending towards progress, the other towards conservation. ...


    It would seem, dear brethren, that we are veering dangerously close to some of the errors outlined above.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    The Royal Priesthood of the faithful is not fulfilled by bakesales & bazaars (pace ladies' guild), but by the actual participation in the liturgy; and actual participation isn't achieved by mindlessly repeating lame settings of the Memorial Acclamation, it is achieved by catechesis. In my experience the TLM folks (who are mostly younger people these days) are better at actual participation because they have catechized themselves (or in rare cases were catechized by the handful of good priests in the USA). Additionally, many N.O. folks who have catechized themselves into uderstanding the liturgy, and wish to actually participate and exercize their Priesthood of the Faithful have either A) converted to the TLM; or B) go to the N.O., because its the only thing available in a reasonable driving time, but bemoan the facts that the music is bad, the canon is said outloud, the altar is facing the people, layfolk do the readings, etc.; or C) go to the local Ukrainian (Byzantine) Catholic parish, the Maronite Parish, or other parish of an Eastern Rite. I know very few well-formed Catholics who prefer the Novus Ordo, at least in its current iteration and praxis.

    Just my two cents.

    I am not against vernacular liturgy, and I don't think that Latin has any specific 'magical powers' (as some allege trads of believing); I do think that in multi-lingual parishes Latin should especially be given "pride of place", at least for the Ordinary, so that all may worship together in a common language. I also think that once the Vatican II generation meet their eternal reward, the liturgy wars will start to fizzle out naturally, and there will be an honest re-assessment of the Council & the post-concilliar liturgies, especially since many have come to see what was lost from the TLM; and, at least in the Anglo-sphere, the Ordinariate liturgies are becoming of interest to liturgists; and also modern scholarship has dispelled many of the myths popular around the time of the council about that "the early Church" did. I wouldn't be surprised if Editio Typica Quarta looks more like 1965 or 1967.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Seems to me Vatican II was more concerned with our relations with Protestants than anything else. It wanted the hostility toward them ended but unfortunately, the result was incorporating some of their views and errors into Catholicism. We became too obsessed with what Protestants thought of us and naively believed we could all go forth together as some kind of super church. How did that work out for us?

    Our issues today are largely internal and don't involve the Protestants. The mainline Protestant churches have gone into a serious decline maybe even worse than our own. It is beyond time to start worrying about and working on our serious internal issues such as doctrine, liturgy, and place in the world. Evangelization is essentially dead and we have really lost our way where it is concerned. We have far greater issues than the form of the mass we use.
    Thanked by 2ServiamScores tomjaw
  • francis
    Posts: 10,818
    @serviamscores

    Do you mean crashed into, absorbed and now believing errors are true and good?
    Our issues today are largely internal and don't involve the Protestants.

    Charles

    LOLVL

    Ummm...., The “protestants” have infiltrated and are running the event. (What remains of) The Catholic Church has retreated to the periphery, is uniting the clans for the next round of bloody battle, and continues doing what the Church has always done, and what the church has always intended to do. We is in full blown total eclipse. Spear in one hand and building walls with the other.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw Gustavo Zayas
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Ummm...., The protestants have infiltrated and are running the event. (What remains of) The Catholic Church has retreated to the periphery, is uniting the clans for the next round of bloody battle, and continues doing what the Church has always done, and what the church has always intended to do. We is in full blown total eclipse.


    I don't buy this ghetto and catacomb mentality. The church is alive and will continue but it seriously needs to get its act together.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • francis
    Posts: 10,818
    ...and ostriches will certainly get trampled by elephants... you yourself have already fled the madness... yes?
    Here it begins. The TLM for the Easter Triduum has been banned in Rome.

    And Rome is probably the ONLY place it will be banned...

    ROME: We did it! I think we finally delivered the crushing blow to the Ark of Peter! Quick! Everyone abandon ship!! To the lifeboats!

    ARK ADHERENTS: (peering over edge of rail) To whom shall THEY go?!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    To paraphrase an old joke, what is that goo between the elephants toes? Slow ostriches.
    Thanked by 2francis CHGiffen
  • francis
    Posts: 10,818
    Lol... Never heard that one...