Rewriting Words of Polyphony
  • There are some 15th century Mass settings which I would like to sing by Dunstable and Leonel Power:
    https://imslp.hk/files/imglnks/euimg/f/f9/IMSLP411107-PMLP665925-Dunstable_mass.pdf
    https://s9.imslp.org/files/imglnks/usimg/f/fc/IMSLP458476-PMLP744975-Power_Missa_Alma_redemptoris.pdf
    However, I believe it would now be illicit to sing these at Mass as the Council of Trent banned having different words in the same piece. I thought of rewriting the bass part but there don't seem to be enough notes. My next idea was to simply leave out some of the words for the bass part, which I believe would be allowed as the texts would be sung in full collectively. Does anyone have any better ideas? Would anyone be willing to give it a go?
  • I’m not sure where you got that idea about Trent. I’m currently in the middle of my fourth JSTOR article about Trent and sacred music and there’s an acknowledgement that words should be intelligible, but I’ve yet to see a single reference about not having multiple words.

    There was a proposal to ban polyphony, but that was scrapped, and polyphony has gone on to be formally enshrined in magisterial law. Polyphony is, by it’s very nature, a constant layering of texts, so it seems to me such a notion that there can be no mixing of texts is incorrect. I suppose it depends on what you mean by “mixing”. If you mean that you can’t sing the Kyrie and Gloria at the same time, that’s certainly true, and it was intended that you wouldn’t layer four separate lines of the Gloria at the same time in an attempt to speed through it, but these are distinct from doing alternate settings of text in the style of Englishmotets.com.
    Thanked by 2sdtalley3 tomjaw
  • I will say that it is documented in the discussions and various remarks by bishops that they didn’t like when secular motets were adapted into masses since the material upon which they were based was profane. So I wouldn’t adapt some secular motet into a religious piece just because the counterpoint is lovely. Reviving older religious works into the vernacular, though, appears to me to be something else entirely. Heath does this quite successfully and to all our great benefit.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • And just so we are clear here, as it’s being referenced again in the article that I literally have in my lap at the moment, here is the official decree that was included as a part of the decree “concerning things to be observed and avoided in the celebration of mass”
    “Let them keep away from the churches compositions in which there is an intermingling of the lascivious or impure, whether by instrument or voice.”
    Thanked by 1sdtalley3
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    The problem of different words simultaneously is in Motets (literally from 'mixed up'), when each of the voices sings a different text. For example, the Ite Missa est of the 'Messe de Tournai' is a polyphonic setting for three voices: One voice sings "Deo gratias", the second sings a French love song, and the third a Latin political text: and all three texts are underlaid and intended to be sung.

    Looking at the Leonel Power score: It looks rather old, and not what one would consider a scholarly edition by today's standards. It is difficult to tell, especially without seeing the preface, whether the 'Alma redemptoris' text set in the Tenor/Cantus Firmus in italics in this edition is actually written in the MS or if it an editorial decision so that those reading could find the notes of the Cantus Firmus if they are unfamiliar with the chant. It is likely that the C.F. could be untexted in the MS. There are different theories of how such a work would be performed: Was the C.F. simply played instrumentally? Was the text set 'on the fly' by the singer, perhaps breaking the longer notes, or leaving out phrases? (The latter certainly can be seen in later polyphonic works where the C.F. only sings "Et in terra pax hominibus bonae voluntatis" in the amount of time its takes the other voices to get from "Et in terra" to "Gratias agimus tibi"; and then the tenor picks up again with "Domine Deus" along with the other voices--Such a scenario can be seen in Palestrina's Missa L'Homme Arme a5)

    I would look for a better edition (which is hard to come by); or create your own, texting the Tenor as you see fit. This is a grey area, and different editors do different things.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Obrecht's masterful Missa Sub tuum praesidium is remarkable in several aspects. Firstly, the number of voices increases from 3 (SAT) in the Kyrie, to 4 (SATB) in the Gloria, to 5 (SAATB) in the Credo, to 6 (SSAATB) in the Sanctus-Benedictus, and finally to 7 (SSAATTB) in the Agnus Dei.

    More notably, especially in the context of this thread, the hymn Sub tuum praesidium appears (with its text!) in every movement in the top voice; moreover, there are four (four!) other textual insertions, in these movements: Audi nos in the second highest voice in the Credo, Mediatrix nostra in the second highest and second lowest voices in the Sanctus-Benedictus, and in the Agnus Dei two additional texts, Supplicamus in the third highest voice and Celsus nuntiat Gabriel in both the second highest and third lowest voices!

    It may be difficult to imagine the Agnus Dei with its own text along with three other texts being sung, but the effect is intensely moving. I recorded this mass with Zephyrus shortly before moving to Wisconsin from Charlottesville in 2004. It was an unforgettable experience. From the Zephyrus recording "Flemish Masters", here is the Agnus Dei. An excellent score, edited by Katharina Bäuml, is available at CPDL.

    11 Obrecht-Missa Sub tuum praesidium-Agnus Dei.mp3
    6M
  • I'm not sure that Trent is governing law here, even in a Tridentine Mass (for which the last word would be De musica sacra et sacra liturgia 1958), let alone the Pauline Mass (for which see the GIRM). For the TLM at least (all I will opine on), a vernacular text would be right out, esp. a secular one, but I don't think there's an active prohibition on multiple sacred texts. And if you have a scruple, then just underlay Mass text under that voice.

    Post-Christopher Page performance practice is to sing untexted parts wordlessly. I prefer to have words. Ideally, you wouldn't break ligatures, but nobody will know or mind. Musicology serves the liturgy, not vice-versa.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • The problem of different words simultaneously is in Motets (literally from 'mixed up'), when each of the voices sings a different text. For example, the Ite Missa est of the 'Messe de Tournai' is a polyphonic setting for three voices: One voice sings "Deo gratias", the second sings a French love song, and the third a Latin political text: and all three texts are underlaid and intended to be sung.

    As I mentioned a few days ago, this is currently my reading fodder; it was this exact scenario that the council fathers wanted to avoid, and it was this species of composition that made some of the bishops have a disdain for polyphony. It is both profane and impossible to understand due to the singing of multiple texts simultaneously.

    That said, a few composers submitted pieces to the fathers during deliberations. Among them was Jacob Kerle's Preces, which the fathers found particularly pleasing. https://youtu.be/LEA6ZINv4Yw Scholars cite that this was a particularly influential work in convincing them to scrap the idea of stripping away polyphony.

    Glean what you will from that.

    Thanked by 2CHGiffen tomjaw