"On Eagle's Wings" controversy
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jmtm, I think you are offering us your answer to your question. Your position is that contemporary and traditional church music are style preferences, or biases, and that either genre with any instrumentation is appropriate for mass if it is offered with a prayerful intention.
I think CMAA’s position (the owner of this online forum) is that
- there are styles that are better and more fitting for mass: 1. Gregorian chant, which has 3 claims, it’s ancientness, it’s simultaneous development with the Roman Liturgy, and unique meditative qualities; 2. Renaissance polyphony, which developed historically from Gregorian chant and was usually imbued with the spirit of the chant; 3. Sacred tonal music of the Baroque, Romantic, and Modern eras, again imbued with the spirit of the chant/liturgy; 4. The church organ repertoire (the church organ as the instrument best supporting singing, and best demonstrating the majesty and glory of the Divine in sound [the cosmic instrument]).
- Also, that the Roman church has endorsed and taught all 4 above points in papal and conciliar documents, particularly in the 20th century.
So I think the premise is skewed with postmodern relativism, and the more Catholic attitude is to understand that God teaches us to pray through his Church, that the Church teaches us to pray through her liturgy, and that any music must be united to the liturgy. Thus the primacy of Gregorian chant, the music most intimately a part of the liturgy and which best teaches us the proper way to pray. -
One more question before I shift gears slightly. In the discussion of the organ playing "Cantina Band", it was agreed upon that while this is secular music, it doesn't change the characteristics of the organ as being appropriate for the liturgy. It is played in a completely different style, but doesn't diminish the instrument as a whole, because "Cantina Band" and music like it is not what is played during Mass. A piano plays a rock song completely differently than a hymn; the same goes for a guitar in a country album rather than the liturgy, and me playing my clarinet in a performance of Mozart's clarinet concerto compared to during Mass. These are examples of opposing intentions (performance vs prayer/worship) and presentations (the style in which you play the instrument). Considering that an organ playing secular music does not discredit it for the liturgy, should this same respect be given to instruments like piano and guitar?
The argument was whether the enculturation and sacralization of the organ over centuries was reversed by a handful of secular uses outside of the Church. That wouldn't apply to the piano or guitar, neither of which have developed a specifically "sacred" vocabulary. In this case, it does indeed apply but in the reverse; the handful of uses of the guitar and piano in the church do not diminish their essentially secular character. If practitioners of such instruments were willing and able to undertake the process of enculturation which I described earlier, I would welcome their efforts. To this day, I have seen no evidence of any attempts to do so in the mainstream. -
Bear in mind that neither is right or wrong, better or worse; how can we avoid these biases and reunite rather than become divided through music?
Both sides believe they are right. To say that neither is right implies that both are wrong. But you are saying that both sides are neither right nor wrong, which is precisely what both sides agree to be false. Why should they follow your call to "bridge the gap"? Because you have spoken? And called them "biased"? It seems like you have found your own way out from the argument between these two sides by choosing neither. You may like traditional *and* contemporary music, that's your prerogative. You may not fight in the war, but it will continue without you. -
This makes me think of the rule that one cannot do evil that good may come.it doesn't change the characteristics of the organ as being appropriate for the liturgy...
should this same respect be given to instruments like piano and guitar?
The point of trying to have people "approve" of the guitar, piano, etc., is to have a reason like, "or some other acceptable ______."
Why should the guitar or piano, banjo or clarinet be promoted as equal to the organ?
Why should happy clappy sappy music be promoted as just as good as chant or time-tested sacred music?
Does "liking" a song, even loving a song make it worthy of use in any liturgy?
I'm sure we could find plenty of seemingly "appropriate"/related in feeling/text/content uses for "I Don't Know How to Love Him" from Jesus Christ Superstar, or "Someone Like You" from Jekyll and Hyde if we really tried.
Does that make them worthy of use in any liturgy, though?
As a certain priest often says, "Save the Liturgy - Save the World!"
Let's not enculturated the Church with such mundane worldly amusements.
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I am no fan of contemporary guitar, but the instrument and its predecessors were quite common in liturgical music of late Medieval and Renaissance times. If one does music of that time and place, guitars and the style of playing then are acceptable. See Spanish masses of the day for one example. The piano didn't exist at that time and came much later. Bring back the sackbuts and recorders. Leave out the sagbutts. They were choir singers lacking foundation.
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https://youtu.be/3gxnkraJDAo
This has strummed strings in it, and is quite beautiful and liturgically acceptable. Never in my life have I heard a guitar played in this fashion liturgically.Thanked by 1CharlesW -
Bear in mind that neither is right or wrong, better or worse; how can we avoid these biases and reunite rather than become divided through music?
This is simply untrue. There is a “right” side to this argument that is clearly backed up by centuries of living tradition and magisterial documents that all state the same principals.
I like to pose this question, and when given serious consideration, it is quite arresting:How does GOD want to be worshipped? (And by extension, can we know how He wants to be worshipped?)
We can answer these questions in the affirmative in light of tradition and formal teaching. This is partly why I take umbrage with people who try and push the new music agenda. It is, in fact, verifiably wrong to do so. It is not merely a matter of aesthetics, although it is that too—but only secondarily so.
JPII, BXVI, and even Francis have also reiterated the same principals about sacred music as their pre-conciliar forebears. -
The performance linked by trentonjconn has no strummed strings in it that I can hear, but youtube linked me to a performance which does :-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCao6ZF4uf0
I think that shows that a suitable plucked instrument, if suitably played, can be liturgically acceptable.Thanked by 1mattebery -
Unless I'm losing my mind, there is a lute or something similar which acts as accompaniment at various points throughout the piece (though perhaps not in the first 30 seconds).Thanked by 1CharlesW
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Never in my life have I heard a guitar played in this fashion liturgically.I think that shows that a suitable plucked instrument, if suitably played, can be liturgically acceptable.
One of my favourite ways to hear or sing I heard the voice of Jesus say to the tune KINGSFOLD is with finger-picked guitar by a particular guitarist I know. -
@trentonjconn - no offence intended, between my crummy computer speakers and my aged, hearing aided ears, I am not picking it up. However the one I linked to actually shows an instrument being used , and there it is some lute related large long knecked instrument. And only occasionally can I just about hear that .
I would add that like lutes, guitars have evolved. I would say it is "obvious" that a Fender Stratocaster cannot be suitable, but at least one forum member of conservative taste considers that her husband 'tastefully' accompanying her on the guitar works well. And that is my view, a well played guitar can support a cantor or schola discreetly, just as a badly played organ can mess up good singers.
However I disagree with "neither is right or wrong, better or worse;" organ, if available, is preferable other things being equal. -
Thanks for the "shout out" a_f_! The accompaniment in question is played in such a way as to sound almost like a harpsichord, or maybe I mean continuo, to my ear. It works so well for this piece.
Before our present organist, we had a gentleman who had horrible musical taste! He would occasionally play the organ in what we thought of as "lounge lizard style."
For Lent, my husband used to play "O Sacred Head Surrounded" in a beautiful fingerpicked style, but cannot do that any longer since it is not as an accompaniment and, especially, because our pastor does not allow any guitar music in church. I get why, but it was meditative, beautiful, and sacredly musical.Thanked by 1a_f_hawkins -
One practical issue with the guitar is that it cannot act as effective accompaniment for more than one or two singers at most. It has always been an intimate instrument and is ill-suited to support a congregation. However, in the right context and playing "not guitar" music, it could be quite effective.Thanked by 1Carol
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That would be a theorbo. And it is also the stringed instrument being played as part of the basso continuo in the "Zion spricht..." example of @trentonjconn (both this and the @a_f_hawkins example are beautifully performed). When I sang with Zephyrus in Virginia, we had several occasions to sing with theorbo accompaniment.some lute related large long necked instrument -
The theorbo is frequently part of the ensemble for Three Notch'd Road - The Charlottesville Baroque Ensemble.
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The theorbo is a beautiful instrument and I can't see any reason to ban it from mass other than those instruments don't have the power to accompany like an organ. in times before Beethoven, music ensembles were more intimate and not suited to large concert halls.
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I have to say, the most musically memorable First Sunday of Lent Mass I've encountered involved all the musical accompaniment being a lap harp (played from the gallery). The 1830s era church, formerly a Congregational church, sat perhaps ~200 people if full (the aisles below the side galleries were side altars, not seats). That lap harp did mighty fine - indeed, it was gloriously apt.
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Yes it is!!The theorbo is frequently part of the ensemble for Three Notch'd Road - The Charlottesville Baroque Ensemble. -
davido, I go back to my question of whether the Churchhas said instruments besides the organ are unsuitable for the liturgy? Forget the pride of place for a second. Is it heretical to play a piano? I would also correct your interpretation of my position. You're right, I'm not hiding it, but I'm not trying to shove it on you all. I'm asking for your thoughts. I do believe that both styles are appropriate for Mass with proper intention and that most instruments are as well. I wouldn't pull out an electric guitar or a bass drum, for example, which I think would distract from the Mass.
CCooze, please know that I am not here to condemn traditional music. It doesn't really matter if I like the organ or chant, and it doesn't really matter if you like "Eagle's Wings" and piano. What matters is becoming saints and helping others to do the same. Both styles are praising God, both styles are forms of prayer. I never said that a song from a musical was appropriate for Mass. I wanted to know why people hate "Eagle's Wings", which I really did not understand at all and now I feel like I do understand much more, so thank you to all who have been sharing on this discussion.
Forgive me for falling back into the terminology of "good and bad". When I said that, I meant very specifically with these two styles, with instrumentation, and in the setting of the Mass. Put in "less or more suitable", but my point is that there seems to still be a belief that contemporary styles are not only "less suitable" but "inappropriate". This is what led me to the question of how we can find common ground. I still have not found any Church teaching which states that contemporary styles (piano, guitar, "Eagle's Wings") are immoral. Christ calls us to be united, and since this debate is not one of morality, should we not focus on loving each other even if our tastes in music vary? Should we turn our attention to sharing the different musical styles with each other and helping one another appreciate these different ways to pray?
Chrism, nobody needs to listen to me, and believe me when I say I got into this work knowing fully well that many would not. I know I am imperfect and biased from my own experiences, but I want to improve. If I didn't love my faith and care about the wellbeing of the Church, I would not culminate my music degree at an incredibly liberal and secular university with sacred music. I don't believe we should be choosing sides. We're all Catholic, and yet how easy it is to forget that we are members of the same Church, the same family. I am well aware of this "war", as you put it. This is my point exactly. We should not be in a war with each other. But since we are, I will never stop fighting to end it, reunite our divided family, and bring people together through music.
Music is such a beautiful gift, and one which we can be using as a means of evangelization. As musicians, perhaps it would be a good reflection for us to consider how God is calling us to reach beyond our comfort zones. I strive to do this every day, and one of the ways He called on me was through this project, which led me here. I think we may have reached the point where a large discussion is not the most effective means of communication. I don't want to just cause frustration for any of you or for myself. That is also the devil at work. However, I never like to close the door on communication, so if anyone is interested in continuing this conversation about sacred music (regardless of the project that led me here) and especially if we can work together to bring the Church together, feel free to email me (jmtm9101@gmail.com). Thank you all and may God bless you and keep you in the palm of His hand! -
davido, I go back to my question of whether the Churchhas said instruments besides the organ are unsuitable for the liturgy? Forget the pride of place for a second. Is it heretical to play a piano?
Technically, if you take Tra le Sollicitudini to the letter of the law, pianos should be retired. But then so should women singing in choirs (unless in a convent). This is why many people believe TLS to be, not abrogated per se, but superseded by more recent documents.
In the case of piano, like other instruments, I think it ultimately boils down to how the instrument is played. Is it used to support choral singing (giving pitches to a choir to chant a psalm) etc. or is it used to bang out Rain Down like a gospel revival? If the latter, then it shouldn't be done.
In the preface to TLS, Pius X states,Hence, in order that no one for the future may be able to plead in excuse that he did not clearly understand his duty and that all vagueness may be eliminated from the interpretation of matters which have already been commanded, We have deemed it expedient to point out briefly the principles regulating sacred music in the functions of public worship, and to gather together in a general survey the principal prescriptions of the Church against the more common abuses in this subject.
It would seem he was trying to lay down universal norms which would last long into the future [regardless of how we might wish to perceive them now].
To quote some choice bits of TLS:10. The different parts of the mass and the Office must retain, even musically, that particular concept and form which ecclesiastical tradition has assigned to them, and which is admirably brought out by Gregorian Chant.
12. With the exception of the melodies proper to the celebrant at the altar and to the ministers, which must be always sung in Gregorian Chant, and without accompaniment of the organ, all the rest of the liturgical chant belongs to the choir of Levites, and, therefore, singers in the church, even when they are laymen, are really taking the place of the ecclesiastical choir. Hence the music rendered by them must, at least for the greater part, retain the character of choral music.
VI. Organ and Instruments
15. Although the music proper to the Church is purely vocal music, music with the accompaniment of the organ is also permitted. In some special cases, within due limits and with proper safeguards, other instruments may be allowed, but never without the special permission of the Ordinary, according to prescriptions of the Caeremoniale Episcoporum.
16. As the singing should always have the principal place, the organ or other instruments should merely sustain and never oppress it.
17. It is not permitted to have the chant preceded by long preludes or to interrupt it with intermezzo pieces.
18. The sound of the organ as an accompaniment to the chant in preludes, interludes, and the like must be not only governed by the special nature of the instrument, but must participate in all the qualities proper to sacred music as above enumerated.
19. The employment of the piano is forbidden in church, as is also that of noisy or frivolous instruments such as drums, cymbals, bells and the like.
20. It is strictly forbidden to have bands play in church, and only in special cases with the consent of the Ordinary will it be permissible to admit wind instruments, limited in number, judiciously used, and proportioned to the size of the place provided the composition and accompaniment be written in grave and suitable style, and conform in all respects to that proper to the organ.
21. In processions outside the church the Ordinary may give permission for a band, provided no profane pieces be executed.
It would be desirable in such cases that the band confine itself to accompanying some spiritual canticle sung in Latin or in the vernacular by the singers and the pious associations which take part in the procession.
So, if other instruments are used, they need to support choral singing, and retain the qualities proper to sacred music, particularly as embodied in the instrumental praxis of organ playing. -
Christ calls us to be united, and since this debate is not one of morality, should we not focus on loving each other even if our tastes in music vary? Should we turn our attention to sharing the different musical styles with each other and helping one another appreciate these different ways to pray?
I think here you are applying a false principle, namely: that the admission of any musical taste / genre to the liturgy is permitted in the interest of "unity". Again, when you read official documents about church music (including TLS which I've heavily quoted above) you realize that there are genuine norms which are supposed to be universally applied.
Unity comes from everyone assenting to the liturgy, not from everyone getting to tack on their own cultural preferences to the liturgy. Equal opportunity for abuse (so defined) is not unity. The liturgy should be universal and transcend geographic, time, and cultural boundaries. This is achieved by having a fixed form that applies to all equally, regardless of their respective temporal or geographical context; unity is not achieved not by allowing each generation to shift the liturgy to suit the [ever changing] times. Allowing a mariachi band in the United States and operatic solos in Italy is not liturgical unity. In theory, we should be able to go to mass on any continent and have it feel very familiar and be immediately accessible. Allowing such wide swaths of cultural differences hinders this unity. I've experienced it quite vividly myself. (I've been to Mass in the USA, Portugal, Spain, France, & Austria.)Thanked by 1Nathan_the_Organist -
Technically, if you take Tra le Sollicitudini to the letter of the law, pianos should be retired. But then so should women singing in choirs (unless in a convent).
Really, that notion ought to have reached the status of a canard by now. TLS and similar documents of the era forbade women singing in "choir" because those documents used the term to refer to singers in the chancel -- the document speaks (n. 14) of what should be done "if their place be too much exposed to the gaze of the people".
As early as 1908 the bishop of Los Angeles had received an affirmative ruling on the question of whether women and girls at seats in the church might also sing parts of the Mass together with the men singers.
(reference: Hayburn's "Papal Legislation on Church Music", p. 466 -- a book which is currently on sale at the CMAA Shop)
Thanked by 1trowland87 -
I’m glad to know the distinction referred to the chancel, and I already have the book, so I will go look that reference up. For the record: I’m not against women singing in any way.
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Is it heretical to play a piano?
I would say, no not necessarily heretical, but is it the best choice? Especially when I see people playing piano at Mass, there is often an organ sitting silent.
I would add that it is problematic to play electric bass guitar. Because there's just no reason for it and it seems very secular. I personally have heard this at my parish, by the way.
This is what led me to the question of how we can find common ground. I still have not found any Church teaching which states that contemporary styles (piano, guitar, "Eagle's Wings") are immoral.
If I were a music director finding my way, my question would be, at a minimum, for a very low bar, "how can I avoid offending people and driving people away from my parish with the selections of music at Mass?"
Might people be offended by chant, polyphony, and organ at Mass? I suppose so, but that is literally what Vatican II documents say should have "pride of place". So if people don't like, or are offended by chant, polyphony and organ, that is their problem.
However, when music directors choose sub-par hymns or songs, then the music is distressing or offensive to people, that is the music director's problem. As stated by MJO in the very first answer in this thread.
Every time a child goes to church, his/ her taste and liturgical knowledge are being formed. Why would you give a child "On Eagle's Wings" and make him think that that is the normal music of the Catholic Church, and then that child will clamor for it for the next 50 years? Why wouldn't you give the children (and everyone else at Mass - including God and the angels and saints!) the very best music?
I'm curious if you have you read Ratzinger's The Spirit of the Liturgy?
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Is it heretical to play a piano?
I would say, no not necessarily heretical, but is it the best choice? Especially when I see people playing piano at Mass, there is often an organ sitting silent.
I would add that it is problematic to play electric bass guitar.
"there is often an organ sitting silent" — This is so true. I've seen it too many times.
As for guitars, Pius X outright forbids bands at Mass. (See quotes above) Guitars are an essential element of modern bands and a purely secular instrument. One could argue he meant street [brass] bands, but in any event, the former would be covered under this proclamation since they are both inherently secular in purpose and conception. [I add the caveat that I would suppose highly-trained classical polyphonic picking (Bach Lute Suites played on guitar, for instance) could be granted an exception.]
As for me, I would rather loose one or two souls from our church because they didn't like chanting and preferred OEW and its ilk than loose people because they found it impossible to pray in our church and could find no sense of the sacred in the liturgy. One of these two possible scenarios appears far graver to me than the other.
I've walked out of Masses before and have no qualms about doing it again... but I've never walked out of Mass because it was too reverent or contemplative. The opposite, unfortunately, has been true multiple times.
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As an aside, and in response to your remark that "it seems very secular"——a friend of mine recently told me about a Mass experience she recently had. Her father plays more clasically-styled, yet simple guitar (still ultimately in the hispanic vein of things, but better and more reverent than one would expect to hear in most places) and he also cantors for their church.
She splits her time between that parish and the one at which I am director. Her father's parish recently introduced a drum set (eager volunteer, I suspect) and she found it very unsettling.
"I don't know what it was... but it the music was so much better before they added the drums... it just felt... I don't know... more holy? It just doesn't feel right now that there are drums. It sounds like everything else now. I don't like it; I've pleaded to my dad to make it stop. I don't know how to describe it, but it just doesn't feel OK."
This is a non-musician and she made this observation to me in total innocence.
I told her that she had put her finger right on the heart of the matter without realizing it, and I explained to her my theory that church music should "sound like church music and nothing else". IE- you shouldn't be able to confuse sacred music for anything but what it is. The moment you hear a Palestrina motet, you know it's Mass music. There's no mistaking it. Her innate sensus fidelium knew that the drums were out-of-place... they weren't right for the Mass. She didn't know why she knew it, but she knew it.
This whole episode was very telling to me and merely confirmed to me why having genuinely sacred (as traditionally understood and defined) music at Mass is so important. It's better to displease some people with uncultivated pallets who aren't paying attention to Mass anyway (their problem, not mine) than to actively disquiet souls during the Mass with raucous music.
I've been at many masses where the musicians LOVED the music they were doing, without realizing that it made it VERY difficult to pray at Mass for the PiPs.Thanked by 1KARU27 -
there is often an organ sitting silent
I have often thought that proof of the fact that being able to play the piano doesn't make anyone an accomplished organist. They are different instruments with different characteristics and are played differently. But both have keys! Yes they do, but your point is what? -
there is often an organ sitting silent
I have often thought that proof of the fact that being able to play the piano doesn't make anyone an accomplished organist. They are different instruments with different characteristics and are played differently. But both have keys! Yes they do, but your point is what?
My point is, that parish can't be bothered to find and hire an organist, although they have an organ. They probably also would demonstrate in many ways how on board they are with Vatican II, but not with the organ having pride of place.
Possibly there are people in the congregation who are vehemently anti-organ music. -
My point is that despite what they may think, many pianists simply can not play the organ. Yes, some in the congregation are anti-organ. The complaint I heard more than once was the organ reminded them of a funeral home. I asked one lady if she often spent time at funeral homes to make that comparison. It has always amazed me that many who want to explain Vatican II have never read the documents. They have no idea what the Council wanted.
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Maybe some parishes can't find an organist, but I'd wager that many don't really look for one. There is a parish near where I used to live which had a nice old pipe organ restored and used for a very brief time. Then they bought a keyboard to use instead because their musician wasn't comfortable playing the organ. I asked to be able to play it (I was organist at another local church at the time) and the pastor refused. He told me that the organ wasn't in condition to be played at the time (not true, because I personally knew the person who restored it).
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It seems to me that it is the responsibility of those who can teach people to play the organ, to make sure that they are transmitting their knowledge. My nephew became an organist because when he was only 3 or 4 years old, he was once allowed into the choir loft to watch the organist play. He certainly had a lot of God given talent, but it was nurtured over many years by many talented teachers and by his family.
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Plenty of universities offer a major in organ - but who can afford to take out loans and then have a piddly part-time job that doesn't pay a living wage?
The problem is the Church doesn't support its musicians. Maybe the pope could send some of the Peter's Pence collection to church musicians. -
I like that idea. When I was in college, I was the only organ major on campus. I received several good organ scholarships since no one else was competing for them. Many schools have organ scholarships available. Correct about low church pay. The big money is in other instruments.Thanked by 1KARU27
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"Maybe the pope could send some of the Peter's Pence collection to church musicians."
Many pastors might deeply resent that. It seems they often conceive of themselves as most in need.Thanked by 1KARU27 -
Just curious as to whether this would go to the ones already being paid to be there, or to those who have freely volunteered for years without anything but perhaps a group meal every other year...Maybe the pope could send some of the Peter's Pence collection to church musiciansThanked by 1KARU27 -
It seems to me that it is the responsibility of those who can teach people to play the organ, to make sure that they are transmitting their knowledge.
It would be terribly helpful if more kids wanted to take lessons. Then we can critique the people who transmit their knowledge. I've offered organ lessons for years. I currently only have a single [private] student. I also teach lessons at the local liberal arts college with a fully-fledged music department with majors. I don't have a single secondary student this semester. (Not for lack of desiring.)Thanked by 1KARU27 -
It would be terribly helpful if more kids wanted to take lessons. Then we can critique the people who transmit their knowledge. I've offered organ lessons for years. I currently only have a single [private] student. I also teach lessons at the local liberal arts college with a fully-fledged music department with majors. I don't have a single secondary student this semester. (Not for lack of desiring.)
Maybe it's a chicken and the egg situation. Kids rarely hear organ at church, strangely they don't want to learn it. I think part of the problem is that music education in general doesn't get a lot of attention in many schools.
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Well, the good news is they hear organ at our church! The bad news is it’s difficult to call it an “organ”. Bit of a pig with lipstick. (Analogue Rodgers installed in 1970. Ugh.)
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Serviam, I would take that over a piano any day.
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I use it for everything, although I have to admit that it’s pretty soul crushing at times. Once we switch over the heating it loves to make all sorts of crackling sounds due to the newfound aridity. Sometimes it sounds like I am making popcorn up in the organ loft and people turn around and look up. Last year it got so bad on multiple occasions I had to turn the organ off in the middle of mass. I joke to the choir by singing the old rice crispy theme song: snap, crackle, pop! Wake up call to the church! [that they need to buy a new organ]
The entire choir division is derived from the great; they are all the exact same stops just attenuated a few decibels softer. There are only two oscillators to make the reed sounds for the entire organ; same thing goes for the flutes… The pedal division is completely unbalanced and various sections of different stops are more/less dead. You can’t even tell that I have a pedal Division at all unless I have the 32’ principal turned on. The principal chorus is so muddy as to be almost no help; the 8’ bourdon on the great is so boomy in certain octaves it sounds like the speakers may fry (please, God). I could go on and on.
Essentially, all it affords me is the physics to attempt organ repertoire that I couldn’t on a piano. Little more, I’m afraid. -
Serviam, that is quite terrible. I hope you can get a new one soon.Thanked by 1francis
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Well, my prayers were answered one day when the old organ toaster died. The pastor was agreeable to getting something new, so he authorized the search to begin. Meanwhile, the finance council (without the pastor's knowledge) found someone to repair the old organ, hired him, and had the repair work done. I have a feeling there are many more churches with the same attitude.
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The pastor is well aware of the problem; we were in the process of acquiring pipes to begin formulating a hybrid instrument (I don't want to wade into that discussion today) right when covid hit and then the whole thing fell apart. He did ask me when I hired on, "what would help to keep you here long-term?" and without missing a beat I replied "a new organ". Heaven help me if I have to make my career on this turd. I do have access to a lovely T&B at the college at which I teach, however that access is relatively limited due to the demands on the hall and my own schedule. Does me little good at Mass every weekend anyway.
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Keep in mind there is always the Organ Clearing House for a good used pipe instrument. It will be repairable in 50 years, unlike the electronic. If you do get a hybrid instrument, the pipes you get could be re-used in a later pipe organ someday.
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I still have not found any Church teaching which states that contemporary styles (piano, guitar, "Eagle's Wings") are immoral.
I would submit that this is the wrong question to ask. It not a question of morality or sin, but of fittingness. As the wrong question is being posed, I find that people are often talking past each other.Music is such a beautiful gift, and one which we can be using as a means of evangelization. As musicians, perhaps it would be a good reflection for us to consider how God is calling us to reach beyond our comfort zones.
Again, the question is posed incorrectly. The issue is the use of music in the liturgy, or better, as an integral part of the liturgy, which is narrower than its use in evangelization in general. Perhaps God is calling me to use this song in a prayer service, in a retreat, for a youth group - but its use at Mass is a separate question.I do believe that both styles are appropriate for Mass with proper intention and that most instruments are as well.
The test should be - is this belief grounded in what the Church has taught about music in the liturgy? Otherwise we are left simply with our own judgments, preferences, and "beliefs" (which I would argue is the major source of the confusion regarding sacred music in the past 50+ years).
I find that the arguments presented here against its use in the Mass are more grounded in what the Church has taught. -
Charles, we are well aware of our options. We are very limited, however, as we haven’t much space, and the space that we do have is only 14’ tall at its tallest, and that’s assuming we can get all the hvac equipment out of the way first. Pipes can be mitred, I know, but that’s additional expense and ground space. As I said, I’d rather not get into the weeds about all that now. Suffice to say, we don’t have room for much pipe work, so hybrid seems the appropriate alternative to still charge the room but give us ample flexibility. I’ve been shackled to tiny instruments before, and it’s no more fun that being shackled to this old analogue organ either.
-
@Serviam
Have you or anyone considered relocating some of the pipe registers about the chapel/sanctuary? I played the pipe organ at Belmont Abbey (only for occasional practice), and the mains and reeds were located at west end of the church, and the choir pipes were behind the main alter. I’ve even been to places where sections of pipes were shuttered on the sides of the nave. -
If I were buying a hybrid - and I had that option when I bought my home electronic. No space, so I understand that. If I were, though, I would get the principals as the pipes I did buy. They do make a difference.Thanked by 1CHGiffen
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consider how God is calling us to reach beyond our comfort zones.
Perform works of Messiaen and you'll get beyond your comfort zone.
https://youtu.be/x0__tgrjTkc
https://youtu.be/-0QqEbWubcQ -
This will be my last reply about our organ situation. It doesn’t make any sense to try and flesh it all out here, at least not in this thread.
Without further ado: We have considered retrofitting existing instruments that are for sale, all pipe, hybrid, all digital. In the Front, in the back, in the front and the back, chambers above the side altars.
(Also, I have an MM in organ and I worked in an organ shop for 3 years, and I teach organ at a collegiate level on a north German baroque T&B. I have played the most humble moller artiste practice organ up to large 4 manual Aolean Skinner’s in cathedrals; I’ve played romantic, modern, orgelbewegung, theatre, American eclectic, French & German style…. I’ve played Roger’s, Allen’s, Walkers, and even a well-known M&O. I have given concerts on a moller theatre organ, two different Wolff French romantics, a Fisk, and a Rodgers dedication, and I’ve played countless liturgies on everything in between. Suffice to say, I have a few ideas. I promise I don’t mean to sound haughty or like I know everything—I don’t—but I’m definitely not green behind the ears either.)
My pastor is also highly musically trained and even took organ lessons himself, for a while. He knows enough to be helpful and insightful without getting in the way. He doesn’t consider himself an organist by any stretch, but he understands the theory, mechanics, and tonal aspects of the organ with reasonable enough competence. He also prizes good music and liturgy as essentials. In that sense, I’m tremendously blessed.
In God’s good time, I suppose. (I just wish He would hurry up! Lol)
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