Confused by Mozart's Missa Brevis in C ("Sparrow")
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    The Coronation Mass became a favorite of the Austrian emperors for coronations I suppose like Zadok the Priest for the English.


    As an aside: in the Sydney Cathedral Choir podcast a few months ago, the staff member who deals with the planning of wedding music mentioned that she had received a request from one bride for that stirring work Gandalf The Priest.
    https://cathedralchoir.sydney/podcast/4
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    Palestrina was a capitalist


    That is the ONLY derogatory term in your list in these times.....
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    What are "reformed" Catholic ideas?


    Please see the Catechism of Francis I
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    "pleni sunt caeli et terra'',


    Want a "FULL" one? Try the Sanctus from Britten's War Requiem.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    Mozart's C MInor and his Requiem are in the 'must-know' list for any musician, and his Ave Verum is next in line. Mozart's realization of angelic song is certainly as valid--or more so--than anyone else's, even those who are Great Composers in their own right.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    Mozart Sacred Music Sidebar:

    I happened upon this recording of the fourth movement, Laudate Pueri, from Mozart's Vesperae Solennes de Confessore, KV 339, and I have to admit I've never heard it done at such an extreme speed even with the specified alla breve marking (I am not exactly a fan of treating voices just like instruments; Bach & Handel did their share of that in their choral writing), but I am curious if any forum members can identify the unidentified recording:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Uf3j5Xlpmo
  • Please see the Catechism of Francis I


    There's only one King John in English history, and no one gives him the roman numeral "I".

    Independent of other comparisons, I think the number system kicks in retro-actively for the First of some name.
    Thanked by 1a_f_hawkins
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    As we all know, our differing opinions always reach an impasse... I grant you all rights to your own opinions. I only ask for to express my own without being told to cancel it forthwith.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,799
    the [pleni sunt] from Britten's War Requiem.
    Thanks for reminding me of the piece! It's a great evocation of a myriad flock, following the soprano solo, with fanfares held in reserve for the Hosanna. Besides, much too short for an offertory anthem ;-P

    On another sidebar, Chonak is quite correct as far as German spelling goes. Shmalts, שמאַלץ, sjmalts and even shmalz all seem to work fine in Yiddish though. The Old- and Middle High German smalz may account for the Russian Смалец.

    I should be the last to try to make anybody blush about their spelling. But as the inventor of this particular game of Mozart bear-poking, Francis, how can you not have expected a little roughhousing in return?
    Thanked by 2francis chonak
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    .........then the Benedictus, with the walking-tempo solo voice pointing to Christ, then the hushed/wonder-filled echo of the chorus, and the soloist-orchestral 7th-dissonance of death before the brass-blast repeated.......

    That is SOME piece of 'music illuminating text'........
  • Ha! Stokowsky was director of the Houston Symphony in my youth. The greatest example of musical butchery and vandalism was his arrangements of Bach fugues, etc. One could easily compose a new work for the canon if he got the itch. Trashing other people's work is ghoulish.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    Just imagine Mozart's Ave Verum Corpus with a full orchestration arranged by Sir Thos. Beecham and a chorus of 300!

    Then imagine the same for Wm. Byrd's setting....
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    Ha! Stokowsky was director of the Houston Symphony in my youth. The greatest example of musical butchery and vandalism was his arrangements of Bach fugues, etc. One could easily compose a new work for the canon if he got the itch. Trashing other people's work is ghoulish.
    Whatever your views on Stokowski, he was an organist himself and he had the sincere goal of bringing these superb compositions to a wider audience than they might otherwise reach. That we now view them as dated is emblematic of our privilege in being able to easily and regularly observe them in their proper context, whether through live performances or recordings.
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen CharlesW MarkS
  • Well, I didn't know that S was an organist. Who would have guessed? Maybe that explains a lot! His orchestration is not too far off what most any organist of his time would have played Bach on the organ. Every time the subject (or a major theme) comes 'round blast it out with the cornopean and an abundance of flues and strings (mixtures were hardly known about then - and many who knew about them detested them). We have learnt (and S should have known) that Bach played like Brahms or Liszt is not Bach. When playing for 'the masses' give them the respect of an honest performance. Few would have gone away from a performance by S liking Bach any better - what they liked was S's circus music.
  • Chonak, I would agree that a bad imitation doesn't degrade the masterwork. However, I think you could make the argument that people can have negative associations with the real thing based on bad experiences with an imitation.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,799
    We have learnt (and S should have known) that Bach played like Brahms or Liszt is not Bach.
    Have we even learnt that Bach played like Hindemith or Distler is … ?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    I have often wondered if Bach were to return in our "enlightened" time, would he say, "What the hell are you doing to my music?"
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    And those treatises have been twisted so much to fit a certain narrative. Witness the banishing of all instrumental vibrato up to and including even Mahler (!), when we have a report from Michael Praetorius advising constant vocal vibrato from the beginnings of the Baroque!
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen CharlesW
  • GambaGamba
    Posts: 548
    There is an article in this month’s American Organist on Stokowski’s emigration to the US at the turn of the century to be organist/choirmaster at St. Bart’s, NYC.
  • ...what the...
    I think that if Bach heard his music played by the likes of Hans Davidsson et al., he would have marveled at how closely his playing and his organ resembled his own.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Who knows? Every generation has thought it had the lock on Bach interpretations. I have suspected some with links through their teachers to Bach's time period may have something worthwhile to say about this.
  • We need an enthomusicology of 18th c. Catholic church music. Why did THOSE people like THAT music, and what did it mean to them? And we need regular musicology to illuminate the reform movements. There were always prima prattica pieces being written, even during their nadir in the late 18th c. And the orchestral Mass tradition made it to the early 20th c. (Max Filke) before falling to Tra le Sollectitudine and post-WW I economics.

    To say of several generations of the church, "those people got music totally wrong" strikes me as a rip in the communion of Saints. One can understand their music without necessarily wanting to perform it, though I think that music of the whole history of the church needs to be performed. Yes, ugh, even that of the last 50 years.
    Thanked by 2MarkS CharlesW
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    To say of several generations of the church, "those people got music totally wrong" strikes me as a rip in the communion of Saints.


    Well, they CERTAINLY got that Latin totally wrong, right?

    /sarc
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Yes, ugh, even that of the last 50 years.

    Hey, I'm all for the liturgical performance of the Masses by Stravinsky, Britten, and Poulenc!
  • Jeffrey,

    On the one hand, I want to agree with you that we shouldn't write off any period of music, a priori. On the other hand, when the acknowledge purpose of the OCP and GIA and such of the world is to provide music for a revolution in the Church -- "Sing a new Church into Being" isn't just a song, it's an attitude --, surely it is our duty to quarantine it, to isolate it, and to inoculate future generations from its toxins?
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen francis
  • CG-Z, the problem there is the liturgy that calls forth such music.

    I sort of painted myself in a corner, since if one thinks that all periods of church music should be performed, one either has to allow the current excuse for music, or argue that the Church it was written for is not actually the Church. And I'm not quite ready to argue that here.

    The performance of musical abortions should be safe, legal, and rare.
  • Just as we can perform the music of the 18th-century Church that is good and appropriate while shunning the excesses (the Coronation Mass), we can perform Langlais, Duruflé, Poulenc, and Schroeder while shunning the St. Louis Jesuits. I don't believe that's an inconsistent viewpoint.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    Masses by Stravinsky, Britten, and Poulenc


    Nothing wrong with the Masses of Peeters and Van Hulse, either and you don't have to rent pro singers/orchestra!
  • And Joseph Ahrens.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    And Vaughan Williams.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • Stravinsky, Britten, and Poulenc
    1971 really is the cutoff: Britten's Canticle V: The Death of Saint Narcissus is from 1974, but the golden age of the 60's saw Poulenc's 7 Tenebrae Responsories (1961), Britten's War Requiem (1962), Hindemith's mass (1963) Stravinsky's A Sermon, a Narrative and a Prayer (1961) The Flood (1962), Abraham and Isaac (1963) Requiem Canticles (1966) and Penderecki's St Luke Passion (1966) .

    To carry things forward, there are the short anthems of John Tavener, one of our staples
    Lou Harrison's Mass for St. Cecilia's Day (1983), a plenary mass
    Penderecki: Polish Requiem (1984) Te Deum (1979)
    Pärt: Berliner Messe (1990) with Veni Sancte & Pentecost Alleluias
    Wolfgang Rihm: Deus passus (1999)
    James MacMillan: Mass (2000)
    Christopher Rouse: Requiem (2001–2002)
  • I'd love to be laid to rest to the Requiem Canticles. But alas, not a piece that can be thrown together, and illicit for a Missa pro Defunctis under Pius XII rubrics.
  • I think I'd prefer a comfortable pew myself, Jeffrey ;-)
    We need an enthomusicology of 18th c. Catholic church music.
    There's an interesting article by Joseph Dyer in NG, "Roman Catholic church music" that I never would have come across if I hadn't needed something from the printed R volume. He has interesting takes on Mozart and the Haydns, Joseph being the acme; here are a few other paragraphs:

    Annus qui of Pope Benedict XIV, written on the eve of the Holy Year 1750, is one of the comparatively few papal pronouncements that take up the role of music in the liturgy of the Catholic Church. The pope feared that visitors from north of the Alps might be scandalized by the condition of the churches in Italy and by the kinds of music performed at divine services. (In fact, the published memoirs of travellers reveal that they often were.) While asserting that music in church must first serve the glory of God, the pope also stressed the value of music for the edification and spiritual enrichment of the faithful – an important, hitherto unemphasized distinction that was to have a profound effect on the history of Catholic church music in the second half of the 18th century and beyond.

    The conviction that a reform of Catholic church music was urgently needed to purify it from the corruption of secular influence and triviality resonated widely in 19th-century Europe. It continued well into the 20th century, spreading to British colonies with significant Catholic populations and to the USA. Influenced by 19th-century historicism, many Catholic church musicians looked to the past for principles to guide the reform
    .…
    The Cecilians never quite addressed the issue of quality; thus their programme of reform tended to stress the absence of objectionable features rather than the presence of aesthetically outstanding ones.

    Spontini denounced musicians who performed music from operas to which liturgical texts had been supplied, and the organists who regaled their congregations with potpourris of popular operatic tunes fared no better. He recommended that the punishments imposed by Alexander VII as long ago as 1665 be meted out to the offenders: fines, removal from office, and even corporal punishment … Unfortunately, nothing ever came of Spontini’s prudent programme of reform.

    Questions of musical quality and aesthetic judgment continue to be debated, even though in the USA, for example, the National Council of Catholic Bishops rejected such considerations: ‘musical judgment really says nothing about whether and how this music is to be used in this celebration’ (Music in Catholic Worship, 2/1983). According to this view, ‘pastoral judgment’ rather than an assessment of musical quality is the decisive factor in determining the appropriateness of music for the liturgy. In his encyclical Dies Domini (1998) Pope John Paul II took a different view, defending the principle that excellence was to be demanded of text and music, both of which should be ‘worthy of that ecclesiastical tradition that, with respect to sacred music, lays claim to a patrimony of inestimable value’.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    In my inestimable value we need to sing Gregorian Chant, polyphony and maintain the pipe organ, and that means scrapping the electronic fakes; revise the art of the schola cantorum, eliminate the soloist performance mentality, burn the folk hymnals and their banal instruments and get on with the craft of authentic sacred music. The secular mentality always vies to turn the altar into a stage, and we will always have to defend the church’s honor and purity from those invading forces.

    The church cannot take the erroneous path of a poorly defined and ambiguous philosophy toward what is “worthy of ecclesiastical tradition.” That is the perfect example of indiferrentism cloaked in modernist phraseology if I ever saw it. Our Lady is following the example of her son and is now fashioning a flagellum de funiculis for the next chapter in church history.
  • Felicia
    Posts: 116
    For those of us easily confused by abbreviations and acronyms, NG = New Grove, that is, The new Grove dictionary of music and musicians, 2nd edition, 2001.

    It is also available electronically as Grove Music Online if you have access to a library with a subscription to it.
  • Francis,

    There you go again, being subtle and equivocal, making it nearly impossible to discern your meaning!
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    Well, our world needs ‘loud and clear’ more than ever. I suppose no one can ever come back and say “I never told you”
  • So, does that make you this forum's Flannery O'Connor?
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    forgive my sardonic platitudes... I say what I think and mean what I say and it can be a bit hard to swallow..