Liturgical Reform... Irreversible
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Amazing that perhaps the most brilliant theological mind ever to be pope, one of the clearest theological communicators and most precise and careful thinkers ever to be pope, wrote so cryptically in some of his most important documents that they don't mean what they clearly say. You have to have some gnostic illumination from the secret club to understand what Benedict REALLY meant.
    Isn’t it quite telling and peculiar and somewhat devious?
  • quite telling and peculiar and somewhat devious?


    I've tried reading Pope Francis this way, insisting as a premise that the people he's actually berating are those who can't wait to make the church relevant to modern man, and frequently his texts make more sense that way.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    buy the bishop an ice cream cone


    Not a decent bratwurst?
  • Elmar
    Posts: 500
    I assume that pope Benedict XVI did mean what he said, and that those who disagree and believe that he meant something different (unless they simply misread him) just confuse their wishes with reality. They exist among 'trads' and 'progressives' alike.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    The Roman Missal encourages concelebration at the Chriam Mass, or indeed whenever the bishop is present, but does not require it. At least according to Prof. McNamara:

    https://www.epriest.com/news/view/2236

    If that is correct, it seems excessive to treat a disinclination to concelebrate as disobedience. Vatican II did say (in SC) that each priest retains the right to celebrate Mass individually.

    If anyone doubts that the priests are manifesting communion with the bishop, it might be helpful to check who has been conducting confirmations for the parish.

    Thanked by 2tomjaw ServiamScores
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I forgot which one) explaining that for a very good reason pope B.XVI didn't call the TLM (+ what further belongs to it) a 'rite' but rather the 'extraordinay form' of the Roman rite, in order to avoid that priests could claim that they were 'TLM-only' - and at the same time allowing all 'NO-priests' to say the TLM without additional permission.


    I think Benedict understands human nature all too well and that he knew at the time how some would interpret what he said to advance their own agendas.

    The Roman Rite is not just the TLM but the Roman Rite has a number of variants, some no longer in use. Sarum comes to mind along with Ambrosian, Mozarabic, Benedictine, Carthusian, Cistercian, Carmelite, Dominican, and Premonstratensian (Norbertine) Rite. The Roman Rite is a family of rites within the Latin church. It isn't only what you might see at your local TLM.

    Perhaps we need a smoky cave by the river with an Oracle of Chicago to interpret what papal pronouncements really mean.

    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,945
    "each priest retains the right to celebrate Mass individually."

    Except that no priest has a right to celebrate the *Chrism Mass* individually.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • TCJ
    Posts: 966
    The Chrism Mass and concelebration (or lack thereof) was merely an excuse to kick out the FSSP. If it hadn't been that, there would have been another silly reason. The people shooting themselves in the foot are the bishops who drive out good priests when they already barely have enough priests to run half their churches. It doesn't just happen to the FSSP either. It happens to good diocesan priests as well.
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,025
    The stance I think is correct is succinctly stated as follows:
    1. At Vatican II, the Church decided to replace the liturgical rites then in use with something else: a revised/reformed liturgy.
    2. That revised/reformed liturgy was to supplant what preceded it, and did supplant it with the promulgation of the Missal of Paul VI.
    3. JPII permitted limited celebration of the former rites as an exception, as an act of charity towards those with attachment to the former rites.
    4. Benedict XVI permitted nearly unrestricted celebration of the former rites, also properly understood as an exception, seemingly in the expectation/hope that wider celebration of the TLM would have the effect (by example or osmosis?) of making Novus Ordo Masses more reverent and dignified.
    5. In no way is Benedict's move to be understood as making the TLM equal to nor preferable to the Novus Ordo, which is the liturgical form that supplanted its predecessor and is to be the preferred form in the post-conciliar Church, as mandated by Vatican II.

    I understand "the liturgical reform is irreversible" to mean that the Church will not abolish the Novus Ordo, will not rescind nor turn away from the path of liturgical reform that Vatican II decisively enacted, and that the new, revised liturgy will eventually completely replace the former rites, now permitted by exception, such that for all churches in full communion with Rome, the revised liturgical rites will be the only ones permitted to be celebrated; although schismatic communities may decide to continue celebrating the former rites. Not there yet, but that's what's on the horizon.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,704
    @MarkB
    The opposite of what you suggest is happening in Europe, The N.O. is dying, they have no vocations, they have closed the diocesan seminary, the bishop has be found wanting and has been deposed, their churches have been emptied of the young, and large numbers of churches have been closed.

    In some large towns in France if you want to get to Mass, you cannot find a N.O. Mass they have no priests, you only have the TLM. This is normal for many French, and this is going to happen across Europe.

    "the liturgical reform is irreversible" if you have no vocations, you have no priests, and if you have no priests you do not have the Mass!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    My own observation is that Christianity in general is declining in both numbers and influence. I don't look to the TLM for salvation since, at least in the U.S., the numbers are not there.

    I was told by someone who may have better stats than I, that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the U.S.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,372
    MarkB - surely
    1. At VII, the Church produced SC which called for revisions to the Tridentine Missal, and other rites, such as a) greater range of scriptural readings, b) simplification to achieve greater clarity for the congregation, c) reduction of duplication, d) some use of the vernacular (particularly to avoid repeating the readings), but e) these must be clearly necessary and f) they must grow organically from the then current form of the rite. So not a replacement with 'something else'
    2. The revised/reformed liturgy, being "just a revision", supplanted† the previous Missal. Except that Paul VI permitted limited celebration of the rite as it stood in 1967, as an act of charity towards those with an attachment to the former Missal.
    3. JPII revised this limited permission, both by extending the scope and changing the edition of the Missal permitted. This was an unsuccessful attempt to appease SSPX.
    4. Agreed, pretty much. 5. Probably.
    † the date depends on when the agreed translation of the 1970 editio typica became available, in England&Wales that was 1973.

    Pope Benedicts expressed hope is that the two forms would grow towards each other. This implies that neither is in stasis.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw rich_enough
  • to mean that the Church will not abolish the Novus Ordo, will not rescind nor turn away from the path of liturgical reform that Vatican II decisively enacted, and that the new, revised liturgy will eventually completely replace the former rites,


    The Church won't have to abolish the Missal of Paul VI (which I refrain from calling the Novus Ordo, as a mark of respect). When the seminaries which teach exclusively the theology and praxis of what it represents are empty, it will go uncelebrated.

    Vatican II didn't (as Hawkins and Tom have already noted) decisively enact an unchangeable program of reform. I would add only that if your version of reality is correct, then there will soon be one right way to celebrate it, because it is decisive and unchangeable.... and one of the qualities (attributes?) of the Missal of Paul VI as currently celebrated since the 1970's is that it is flexible enough to allow, even encourage, instability. I don't mean that the changes have been introduced gently over a period of years and that there are a few more changes to put in place before it reaches stability. Rather, instability is baked into the pie.

    The new form can't replace the old if one is celebrated (the old) and one is not, the new, for lack of vocations.

    So, freedom of action and positive progress toward the full realization of the vocation of the laity requires that we force unwilling priests to celebrate the form they would, otherwise, choose not to celebrate?
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    The Church won't have to abolish the Missal of Paul VI (which I refrain from calling the Novus Ordo, as a mark of respect). When the seminaries which teach exclusively the theology and praxis of what it represents are empty, it will go uncelebrated.


    Chris... I just want to clarify that the ‘seminaries will be empty’ and you aren’t saying the ‘theology and praxis are empty’... right? (The wording is a bit unclear concerning the subject that is empty.)
  • Yes, Francis, the seminaries will be empty. I wasn't making a comment on the theology or the praxis. I'll leave that to you.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Mark,

    I don't know if you know anything about the work of Fr. John Zuhlsdorf, but this article tracks your question of being an intentional break from the past, intending to replace it because.... in the era of the 1983 Reformed Code of Canon Law..... well, I'll let you read it there:

    https://wdtprs.com/2021/07/ask-father-do-priests-who-celebrate-only-in-the-vernacular-really-know-what-they-are-saying/
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • mmeladirectress
    Posts: 1,076
    >>> Actions have consequences (and implications).
    Just sayin, I would be very careful here. I worked for a Fortune 100 corporation with disturbingly progressive ideas, one of which was: "Perception is reality."
    (No, it's not.)
    The two FSSP priests probably would be able to articulate their reasons; why should their motives be guessed at by perceived implication.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Madame,

    I'm sure they could articulate their reasons. I'm also sure that those who oppose the TLM will misconstrue any utterly benign explanation they give.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,372
    'those who oppose the TLM' do not, it seems, include the bishop, since he will supply a diocesan priest to celebrate a TLM on Sundays.
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,033
    I hope we can all agree that if the "mutual enrichment" envisioned by the motu proprio is to take place, many more priests should be saying and many more of the faithful attending the older form the Mass.

    But this isn't happening enough, in part (at least) to bishops not allowing or otherwise discouraging its celebration.

    Much of the reasoning here is that the older rite is "temporary," an "exception," a concession to certain very limited groups. So this interpretation of the motu proprio actually undermines one of its main objectives - which in turns suggests that this is the wrong interpretation of what Benedict intended.
  • Rich,

    You've presented the shortest form of the argument I can think of as to why we can't read SP to be grudging permission for an outdated, expiring rite.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw rich_enough
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,372
    CGZ agreed, the grudging permission stage was from JPII. Papa Ratzinger was trying to look forward, and wanting us build from what we have.
  • When he says that what was valid for our parents is valid for us, too, he undercuts the "never go back" argument because we don't have to go back to get it, and freeze it in amber: it's right there, valid for us today as it has been for generations in the past, and will be in the future.

    Now, I'm unsure as to what to do with the permission of Pope John Paul II. At some level he must have realized that the choppy waters the Church was enduring were, at least, partly of her own making.
    Thanked by 2ServiamScores tomjaw
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    In this Archdiocese, (and in Madison, next-door to the west) there are a number of recently-ordained priests who have learned and who celebrate the EF. Neither Bishop is interfering with that at all. Further, there is growth in the number of souls attending EF Masses, not least because they are offered in more places; therefore traveling 1+ hour each way is no longer necessary.

    It took about 30 years for this to percolate through the system.