Happy Fourth!
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    I would rank Henri IV over his grandson, whose reign was a patchy affair, the last three decades ultimately being worse for France (and Europe). The calamity of Louis XV's pretty much losing his entire family in infancy was a most unfortunate postlude to it. Henri IV was the first, and perhaps last, solidly good Bourbon/Borbon monarch for his people; Carlos III of Spain (and, before he became that, Carlo VI/IV of Naples/Sicily) would be the runner-up. Otherwise, that dynasty offered a lot of misery seasoned with sometime glories. (Unlike, say, the solid multigenerational consecutive run of the Jagiellonians in Poland/Lithuania, which rivaled the best run of the Capetians in France centuries earlier. Dynasties are rarely solid over more than 3 consecutive generations, and 3 is pretty lucky. I don't pine for hereditary monarchy. Venice had a far better run over 500 centuries without one.)
  • Liam,

    You take it as apocryphal, that Henri IV said "Paris vaut bien une Messe"?

    How do you justify the Edict of Nantes if he is the best Bourbon monarch?
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    In practical terms, the Edict of Nantes helped France subdue its strife from the Wars of Religion, strife which did nothing in favor of religion of any kind. The largest (in area) Catholic power within Europe - the Dual Commonwealth of Poland-Lithuania - might well be counted even more tolerant (and in more ways) in that era. The revocation of the edict didn't exactly help France (it certainly helped the rise of Prussia).
  • Jehan_Boutte
    Posts: 264
    Liam,

    I would rank Henri IV over his grandson, whose reign was a patchy affair, the last three decades ultimately being worse for France (and Europe). The calamity of Louis XV's pretty much losing his entire family in infancy was a most unfortunate postlude to it.

    I disagree on that. Sure, Henri IV was a great King, one who took France out of those disastrous Religion Wars which, not only tore the country apart, but nearly offered it on a silver platter to the foreign powers (since the Holy League was supported by the Spanish and Habsburgs, while the Protestants received help and money from England and Holland). But Louis XIV made France Europe's first power, whether politically or culturally. Even though the end of his reign undoubtedly saw a relative decline of France's power, Louis XIV's reign was still successful: for one, he kept all his conquests and made sure his grandson would rule Spain.
    Louis XVI could also have been a great King, his reign certainly stated very well (not only did he help to free the US from England, he weakened England's influence in Europe through that); but for his weakness during the Revolution, he could have been an even better King than Henri IV and Louis XIV.

    In practical terms, the Edict of Nantes helped France subdue its strife from the Wars of Religion, strife which did nothing in favor of religion of any kind. The largest (in area) Catholic power within Europe - the Dual Commonwealth of Poland-Lithuania - might well be counted even more tolerant (and in more ways) in that era. The revocation of the edict didn't exactly help France (it certainly helped the rise of Prussia).

    You're absolutely right on that one. The revocation was one major mistake, since many French Protestants left their country to serve another, thus weakening France against her enemies. Louis XIV should never have done it. The only positive influence I see about it is the decisive spreading of French culture caused by the emigration of the Huguenots.
  • Jehan,

    But it was Huguenots' culture they spread!

    On the Edict: it put in place a tiny minority armed to the teeth, with the help of the crown. Independent of whether this is good policy on any other level, how can a Catholic king put in place an armed insurrection waiting to happen and claim that it's for the good of the Catholic populace?
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Sometime in the next 6 days, perhaps the title of this thread should be changed to Happy Bastille Day?
  • Happy Bastille Day?


    Hmm. Goes right there next to Happy Gulag Liberation Day, Happy Re-education Camp Graduation Day, Happy .....?
    Thanked by 1Jehan_Boutte
  • I shan't be celebrating Bastille Day!
    It should, rather, be called Natioanal Guilliotinrne Day, for it ushered in, not liberty but death to all who opposed La Revoluion, and, dread of saying something 'wrong' lest the revolutionary authorities take exception to a word that slipped off your tongue, a word which would have found you on the next trumble with others to meet your end. Whilst waiting your turn you listen the hags of Paris gathered 'round cackling and doing their knitting whilst gleefully counting every head as it tumbled, again, and again thousands of times These were days of infamy, not of rejoicing! They actually stooped to regicide.
    Perhaps a day of reflection would be Louis IX dispensing justice under an oak three. Nothing there for the Paris mob1 - Nothing but goodness. and Inspiration. He may well have been France's most noble king.
  • Jehan_Boutte
    Posts: 264
    Actually, July 14 is not so much Bastille Day as the commemoration of the Feast of the Federation.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    "The revocation was one major mistake,"

    Among several of the last 30 years of Louis XIV's reign. The wars of those decades may have helped put his grandson on the Spanish throne - a dubious benefit for both Spain and France in the long run - but otherwise ensured an array of other powers would rise to concentrate against France, resulting in Great Britain being a European power of first rank for the first sustained time since the Angevin Empire, and also prodding Prussia into a European power of first rank. Yes, France retained cultural eminence for another century, but the mass of people couldn't eat cultural eminence.

    Louis XIV dying in 1684 might have been better for France in the long run.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn