Pre-1955: Which Ordinary to use on which day?
  • jazz_man
    Posts: 11
    At my Latin Mass community there is an interesting in reviving some pre-1955 traditions where possible. Looking at the pre-1955 Kyriale and calendar, I think I can see which ordinary ought to be used on which days according to ordinary's title (below) and the rankings existing at that time (doubles of the first class, doubles of the second class, greater doubles, doubles, semi-doubles, simples). However I'm not sure I have these right and there's a couple I'm not sure about at all. Could anyone help me fill in the blanks or correct any mistakes I've made?

    1. Tempore Pascali - During Pascaltide
    2. In Festis Solemnibus 1 - ?
    3. In Festis Solemnibus 2 -?
    4. In Festis Duplicibus 1 - Doubles of any kind?
    5. In Festis Duplicibus 2 - Doubles of any kind?
    6. In Festis Duplicibus 3 - Doubles of any kind?
    7. In Festis Duplicibus 4 - Doubles of any kind?
    8. In Festis Duplicibus 5 - Doubles of any kind?
    9. In Festis B. Mariae Virginis I - Blessed Virgin Mary
    10. In Festis B. Mariae Virginis 2 - Blessed Virgin Mary
    11. In Dominicis infra annum - Sundays throughout the year, but not those of Pascaltide (1), Advent (17), or Lent (17)? And presumably other ordinaries that correspond to the rank of the day may be used instead?
    12. In Festis Semiduplicibus 1 - Semi-doubles
    13. In Festis Semiduplicibus 2 - Semi-doubles
    14. Infra Octavas quae non sunt de B. Maria Virgine - During Octaves, except those of the Blessed Virgin Mary
    15. In Festis Simplicibus - Simples
    16. In Ferris per annum - Weekdays throughout the year except during Pascaltide (1), Advent (18), or Lent (18)? And presumably other ordinaries that correspond to the rank of the day may also be used instead?
    17. In Dominicis Adventus et Quadragesimae - Sundays during Advent and Lent
    18. In Feriis Adventus et Quadragesimae. In Vigiliis, Feriis IV Temporum et in Missa Rogationum - Weekdays of Advent and Lent. And also Vigils of any kind? And Masses of Rogation? Not sure what is meant by 'Feriis IV Temporum' - any help?

    Thank you in advance!
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,726
    First of all the above are only suggestions, see an earlier set of suggestions here,
    Solemn feasts doubles of the first class use either Mass II or III.
    Doubles of the second class, greater doubles, doubles use any from IV-VIII. Normally Mass IV is used for Apostles, and VIII is used for feasts of the Angels.
    The rest you have the right idea.
    Feriis IV Temporum (Feria of the IV class)

    This is the easy part, the hard part is working out the ordo (calendar) for your place.
    Thanked by 1jazz_man
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,992
    My caution would be against biting too hard on this as if it's a restoration of pre-1955 practice.
  • Chrism
    Posts: 869
    Whatever you do, do with real devotion! For example, if you decide to reserve Mass III for First Fridays or Masses of the Sacred Heart, then you are moving toward offering Mass III in honor of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, and you can keep that in mind when singing it.
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,061
    Interesting. The priest who people generally consider to be "the main priest" in our diocesan TLM rotation has just decided that "it's law" per '62 to do IV-VIII and XI for most Sundays, being Feasts of the 2nd Class. I'm not yet convinced that "it's law" (I'm willing to be convinced), but the priest is right even when he's wrong, and it's an excuse to learn Masses IV-VII.
  • CharlesSA
    Posts: 163
    Feriis IV Temporum are Ember Days - their Latin titles are Feria IV (or Feria VI or Sabbato) Quattuor Temporum, and yes, that would be Mass 18 in the OP/Liber's suggested usage. And yes, Rogation Masses would use Mass 18.

    Mass 11, according to the usage above, is for Green Sundays only (and Septuagesimatide Sundays minus the Gloria), not any other Semiduplex day.

    No idea what past usage was (or suggested...going to pains to emphasize that the above usage was never mandatory), but presumably, Masses 2 and 3 would be for all Doubles of the 1st Class not of our Lady, while Masses 3 to 8 were for all other Doubles - 2nd Class, major and minor.

    Mass 16 is all Green Ferias.

    Clear Creek Abbey basically follows this usage, adapted to the modern classification system. Generally (I think there are rare exceptions):

    All Solemnities (not of our Lady) would alternate between Masses 2 and 3;
    All Feasts would use Mass 4;
    All obligatory Memorials usually used Masses 12 and 13, with occasional dipping into Masses 5 to 7;
    All optional Memorials alternated Masses 14 and 15;
    Green ferias, Mass 16;
    Violet ferias/penitential vigils/rogation&Ember Days Mass 18;
    Most of Eastertide (including all Sundays and all non Solemnity/Feast saints during the week) Mass 1;
    All Green and Septuagesimatide Sundays, Mass 11;
    All Violet/Rose Sundays, Mass 17;
    All Feasts of our Lady Mass 9, except Saturdays of our Lady used Mass 10.

    Literally never use Mass 8...which I think is funny considering that Mass 8 is probably the most well-known in the Church as a whole.
  • CharlesSA
    Posts: 163
    Jeffrey: Does that priest have any reason/source to know that it is law, outside of the listings in the Graduale/Kyriale/Liber/etc.? I have heard from the time I first learned chant that one may use any Mass part from any of the 18 Masses (and ad Libitum ones) on any day, but I do not know exactly which documents say what. I.e. there is definitely something which allows any chant to be used, but I am not sure what date that is from (I.e. whether it is pre- or post- Vatican II).
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,397
    Liber Usualis 1961 p.78 = Liber Brevior #813 1954 p.80
    ¶ This Ordinary is NOT meant to be a matter of hard and fast rule :
    chants from one Mass may be used together with those from others, the
    Ferial Masses excepted. In the same way, in order to add greater solemnity,
    one or more of the following '' Chants ad libitum " may be employed.
    Graduale 1908 p.80 [pasted not proofread]
    Qualislibet cantus huius Ordinarii superius in una Missa positus
    adhiberi potest etiam in alia, feriis tamen exceptis; itemque
    pro qualitate Missae, aut gradu solemnitatis, aliquis potest assumi
    ex iis qui subsequuntur.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,397
    After VII the restrictions on mixing chants for different categories of feasts are relaxed in principle by SC calling for simpler chants. And formally by the SCR decree Quam Constitutio 14 Dec 1964, promulgating the Kyriale Simplex.
  • Hawkins,

    IF the question is about pre-55, surely the Post Vatican 2 citation weakens, rather than strengthens, your point?
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,397
    I don't see how anything said after 1963 can alter what was said in 1908.
    I Think the 1908 translates in part as -
    Chants of whatever sort in the Ordinaries above may be used with those of any other,
    Ferial Masses excepted;
    itemque pro qualitate Missae, [Google: as well as according to the type of the Mass]
    in order to add greater solemnity,
    others may be chosen from those which follow.
    But my syntax has not been tested since 1953, and I am uncertain where the highlighted clause fits.
    In the same way according to the type of the Mass, in order to add greater solemnity, others (other chants) may be chosen from those which follow.

  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,061
    Does that priest have any reason/source to know that it is law

    I've not been given that data, though I gently enquired. I had also quoted the Liber quote presented here. He also said, "Go ahead and do Mass 13 if that's what you have prepared", so "law" seems a little flexible.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    The "Liber Brevior", Desclee, 1954, pg. 80:

    "This Ordinary is NOT (sic) meant to be a matter of hard and fast rule: chants from one Mass may be used together with those from others, the Ferial Masses excepted. In the same way, in order to add greater solemnity, one or more of the following 'Chants ad libitum' may be employed."

    Sorry, duplication: I didn't see afhawkins's post, above.
  • Salieri,

    The copyright date matters in this case.
    Thank you.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,397
    This is how the same rubric is given in the 1905 Solesmes Kyriale "according to the Vatican edition" with Preface etc. in English
    Any chant in this ordinary may be transferred from one Mass to another; and also, according to the rank or solemnity of the Mass, any of the following chants may be used.

    So from early in the reign of Pius X, there has been clearly stated flexibility in choice of chants of the Ordinary.
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,038
    Most of the groupings into "Mass II" or "Mass V", etc. are not found in the manuscripts, which generally had all the Kyries, Glorias, etc. grouped together. (In one case, Mass X, the Sanctus was supplied by Dom Pothier in the late 19th century.) The possible exceptions are the chants of Masses I, IX, and XVIII.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Yes, there is incredible variation in the tradition regarding the assignment of the chants of the Kyriale. E.g., in the Medicean books the Mass for Sundays per Annum is our current Kyrie & Gloria XI with Sanctus & Agnus XVII; the Mass for Sundays of Advent & Lent is Kyrie XVII with Sanctus & Agnus XI.

    The only things that seem fairly consistent throughout the tradition (at least 16th - 19th century) is "Lux et origo" for Easter and our current Mass XVIII for ferias of Advent & Lent.
    Thanked by 2rich_enough Liam
  • CharlesSA
    Posts: 163
    So it seems clear that the groupings of Mass ordinaries in the 20th c. Liber have not been around very long. I understand that. And I would be interested to know why they made the groupings that they did given that they were not previously grouped that way.

    That being said, it just makes good sense to have a more or less set Mass setting to sing for a given liturgical day, and so I like that we have these ordinaries in the Liber to choose from depending on the day's ranking. I mean as opposed to just picking randomly out of a large number of choices. Obviously there is still an element of choice in the current setup since there is more than one Mass designated for the same liturgical rankings. It was really cool at Clear Creek to become familiar with all 18 Masses (and even some of the Ad Libitum chants) and to associate certain types of days with certain Mass settings.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,397
    That is the sort of flexibilty I like :- here are some clear guidelines; but you can mix and match if you have reasons. The vast majority will just go with option 1, and may not even notice there is a choice.

    We didn't get Easter in church this year or last year, but at the Vigil when the congregation is invited to renew their baptismal promises, following in their missalettes what they are asked to say, -
    And so I ask you:
    Priest: Do you renounce Satan?
    All: I do.
    Priest: And all his works?
    All: I do.
    Priest: And all his empty show?
    All: I do.
    Priest: Do you renounce sin,
    so as to live in the freedom of the children of God?
    All: I do.
    Priest: Do you renounce the lure of evil,
    so that sin may have no mastery over you?
    All: I do.
    Priest: Do you renounce Satan,
    the author and prince of sin?
    All: I do
    Then the Priest continues:
    Priest: Do you believe in God,
    the Father almighty,
    Creator of heaven and earth?
    All: I do.
    Priest: ...

    99% of our congregation is gazing at the black text, wondering why he has not said form 2, and neither listening to the words, nor taking notice of Or. So in 201999 our pastor said after only two or three of us had replied "You don't seem very sure of that, I'll ask again" [embarrassed laughter, but a good strong response].