Sacristanus, I confess this alarmed me just a bit when I first read it too. Couple in the fact that I've been reading through a tome entitled "Papal Legislation on Sacred Music" which pointed me to Pius XII who then reaffirmed what Pius X wrote and referred to it as the new and definitive legislation. There really is a bit of a conundrum here if these two popes are to be followed to the letter of the law.

But CharlesW, has there been any decree or document that has reversed what was said in the documents by Pius X and Pius XII?

Can we change the title to call us 'women' instead of 'females'? Females sounds like livestock or something.

Can we change the title to call us 'women' instead of 'females'? Females sounds like livestock or something.

We need a term which will encompass both girls and women along with boys and men.

^This ain't it

I'm not sure what you're referring to. Could you clarify please?

As a_f_hawkins wisely points out, the term "choir" doesn't mean the same thing to all people these days. The distinctions he points out are largely lost to English speakers now. There is more than one type of singers grouped under the term, "choir."

using "females" because it encompasses women and girls is not good.

How so?

Back to the OP's question....

I believe it's been hashed out time and again that "choir" in this instance refers to the 'liturgical choir' as would have been situated in the sanctuary. Tra le Sollecitudini still applies when speaking about the choir in this manner.

"Choir" as we generally refer to it today refers to the 'choir up in the loft' (or elsewhere in the church but NOT in the sanctuary) to which this restriction on women does not apply.

It was asked above whether this provision of TLS had ever been reversed.

In the Church laws sometimes lose their effect because of non-enforcement. Practices outside the law may be carried on for a long time with the approval of the pastors of the Church and eventually be considered customs that are lawful unless they are expressly excluded in some later law.

Also, there were express rulings from the Sacred Congregation of Rites allowing women to sing from places outside the sanctuary. These were requested soon after TLS by American bishops who reminded Rome that in this mission country churches were not equipped with choir schools and not built with spacious sanctuaries, and that the custom of mixed-sex choirs was long established here. The permissions from Rome came with strict cautions to the bishop to ensure the physical separation of the sexes. If I remember right, that would even include a barrier, but I don't know of any lofts where that was implemented. Nowadays, fire safety would exclude it.

Questions about how to observe TLS in this matter arise understandably when people are trying to follow the practices of an old liturgical life and they are depending on written descriptions, since they don't have direct experience; and often don't even have collaborators with direct experience.

Moreover, the approach to law in the English-speaking world, with its legal positivism and strict interpretation sometimes leads people to take laws more literally than the authority of the Church does.

MatthewRoth wrote:

Stulte, the reason given by Catherine ought to suffice.

If you want to use another term that you think is more accurate and fitting, be my guest.

Chonak wrote:

Also, there were express rulings from the Sacred Congregation of Rites allowing women to sing from places outside the sanctuary. These were requested soon after TLS by American bishops who reminded Rome that in this mission country churches were not equipped with choir schools and not built with spacious sanctuaries, and that the custom of mixed-sex choirs was long established here.

And they had no intention of doing things otherwise it seems. The more I read about the history of the Catholic Church in the USA, the more I come up with the sense that many of the Bishops were, whether wittingly or unwittingly, some of the worst destroyers of Catholic culture during the 20th century.

And they had no intention of doing things otherwise it seems. The more I read about the history of the Catholic Church in the USA, the more I come up with the sense that many of the Bishops were, whether wittingly or unwittingly, some of the worst destroyers of Catholic culture during the 20th century.

Yes, unfortunately true, and wittingly, as they continue to prove.

https://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13teste.htm

Excerpt... sound familiar?

The underlying principle of these new opinions is that, in order to more easily attract those who differ from her, the Church should shape her teachings more in accord with the spirit of the age and relax some of her ancient severity and make some concessions to new opinions. Many think that these concessions should be made not only in regard to ways of living, but even in regard to doctrines which belong to the deposit of the faith. They contend that it would be opportune, in order to gain those who differ from us, to omit certain points of her teaching which are of lesser importance, and to tone down the meaning which the Church has always attached to them. It does not need many words, beloved son, to prove the falsity of these ideas if the nature and origin of the doctrine which the Church proposes are recalled to mind.

Also unfortunate is that the Vatican has succumbed to the very error itself.

To clarify, I was talking about only the EF in my post above.

I sing in a men's schola weekly, which is a subset of those who sing in a polyphonic mixed choir, but all in choir loft at rear of church. (sometimes I get to sing Alto, and rarely Soprano (countertenor, of course)... we haven't had a discussion about men singing S and A, so I thought I might throw that into the mix!)

the more I come up with the sense that many of the Bishops were, whether wittingly or unwittingly, some of the worst destroyers of Catholic culture during the 20th century.

And then Francis beat me to the NINETEENTH-Century termite-ism of the US Bishops, too!

Chonak, very good question. That seems like something someone could do a large research project on. Though, if one reads Pugin's treatise on screens, there were already issues with church architecture not reflecting traditional Catholic thinking by the 1850s.

Pugin's churches would have a choir (part of a church not a group of singers) and some sort of Rood screen... Other people had other ideas about how a church should be arranged, although all larger churches seem to have had space for a choir and choir stalls on the sanctuary. Most but not all of the larger churches also had an organ loft with room for a choir.
The above is from my travels around England and Switzerland.

Milwaukee's cathedral had a screened choir area on the second floor in the apse on the Epistle side. That disappeared when the place was ruined under the hand of +Weakland. IIRC there was another parish church with a similar arrangement (screened)...but the details escape me now.

An older German church on the North side of town had its choir on the second floor, also in the apse on the Epistle side; it was not screened because that parish had men and boys' choir (until 1940-'50 or so). That church has been demolished.

At Our Lady of Sorrows Basilica in Chicago, one can see such an arrangement (organ went in in 1902): https://images.app.goo.gl/q872RS5Ez8S8Qf9V8

The console and the choir sit high up in the clerestory level, in a gallery on the north/Gospel side. The pipes of the organ are divided; some here, some in a facing chamber on the south side. The choir sits/sat in theatre-style chairs, sharply raked so that all can look straight down to the console and the altar.

As you can see, there is wooden grillwork on the nave side of this loft, partially in front, and also around where the pipes are. Thus the choir is invisible except from the high altar. I was only there once, 6 years ago, to play for a visiting choir, so I can’t remember if there was a sliding panel or some other device to completely close off the front, but nevertheless it seems to be in accord with the thinking of TLS....

I am not sure when the last time was that the space had been used by singers. There was thick dust on every surface but the console, some very old Latin octavos in the seats, and several cabinets filled with preconciliar music (Rossini propers, Top 500 Forgettable Motets for Benediction, and so on). If I remember correctly, there may be a shot or two of this area in use in +Sheen’s Pray the Mass film from the 40s.